Comments by Tom Bombadil

These are the 10 posts of 114 by Tom Bombadil.

  • Gloss “effírië” by Ardalambion (Helge Fauskanger)

    Is that a compound of the prefix et- and the verb fir-?

  • Allative of between

    Ok, thanks. I think, I will choose your first suggested method. It's more unspeculative. I just hope that there is a word for place, which can be used in such an abstract way.

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  • Allative of between

    I would like to translate this quote into Quenya:

    "Between the idea and the reality, between the motion and act, falls the shadow."

    I am a bit confused by "between", for the shadow is not yet between them, but moves to the centre. Can I still use usual forms like Imbe, Enel and Mitta, or do I need an allative form of them? It seems as if we will be able to decline Imbe like a noun because it has a singular (Imbe), a plural (Imbi) and a dual form (Imbit). Might it also have an allative? Imbinna? Or what else could be used for this "between" of the quote?

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  • Linking vowels (Quenya)

    "Then the stem vowel of the first word is repeated at its end. "

    Thank you very much! That was the rule I was searching for.

    "in some of your examples of compounded words, the were not actually connecting vowels."

    Yes, I assumed that too, and I wrote it.

    Tamas, apparently my aims and ideas were not completely clear, I'm sorry for that, and I will repeat all of them. A bit reasonless, because Ríon understood and gave me the answers, but anyway, if one starts thinking that I'm insane

    "Tom you're becoming a bit of a ahem Riddle here, and that's a bit concerning."

    Then I think, I should say something.

    My basic idea, which is really not complicated, is that I could use suffixes like infixes.

    I wanted to create compound words. There are four possible situations:

    1. Word one results in a vowel and word two results in a vowel.

    2. Word one results in a vowel and word two results in a consonant.

    3. Word one results in a consonant and word two results in a vowel

    4. Word one results in a consonant and word two results in a consonant.

    I am not interested in situation one, because I already know what happens there. I am also not interested in situation two and three, for I already know that both words just connect, without any change. Examples:

    Ama + Tixe -> Amatixe

    Ava + Cúma -> Avacúma

    Apa + Nóna -> Apanóna

    Atya + Russa -> Atyarussa

    Nó + Coire -> Nócoire

    Nó + Laire -> Nólaire

    Caista + Nótie -> Caistanótie

    Tarma + Sundar -> Tarmasundar

    Tasar + ion -> Tasarion

    I could tell many many more examples, but I think that the concept is obvious. I am interested in situation four: consonant + consonant. There are also four possible situations here:

    4.1. The first word results in one consonant (for example Enel, Elen, Atan, etc.) and the second one starts also with one single consonant (for example Lúce, Sáma, Vande, etc.)

    4.2. The first word results in one consonant and the second one starts with two (for example, Mbelekoro, Hwerme, Hwinya-, etc.)

    4.3. The first word results in two consonants (for example Heceld-, Mard-, Lepetass-, etc.) and the second one starts with one consonant.

    4.4. The first word results in two consonants and the second one starts with two consonants.

    I do not care about situation 4.1. If one word results in a single consonant, and the next one starts with a single one, then it is ok. There are rules for that (for instance: -n + r- -> rr (Elerrína). I do not know all of them, and I could need help to find them, but that was not my question. Situation 4.2 and 4.4 are pretty seldom, so I am mainly interested in 4.3.

    The problem is that it is impossible that more then two consonants are in series (although there are exceptions for semi-vowels like w and y). I'm not completely shure whether a real Quenya word can start with two consonants which are not semi-vowels, but that does not matter. At least suffixes can (-sse, -nce, -ndon, etc.)

    There are two consonants in series in situation 4.1, three in 4.2 and 4.3, and four in 4.4. As far as I know, it is the most common strategy in situation 4.2, 4.3 and 4.4 to put a vowel between the two words. I just don't know, what kind of vowels are required. It is sometimes -a-, sometimes -e-, sometimes -i- and maybe -o- and -u- are possible too.

    Word 1--linking vowel-Word 2---Result (compound)

    Atan--------a----------mir----> Atanamir (4.1)

    Er----------e----------sse----> Eresse (4.2)

    Anar--------i----------nya----> Atarinya (3)

    So how do we know, whether the linking vowel has to be -a-, -e- or -i-? My idea was that the linking vowel is identical to the first vowel of the second word, -e- in Eresse, because of the e of -sse. Apparently this is not true, therefore I thought that I can just use -ie- if word one will be a noun, -i- if word one will be a verb and -a- or -ya- if word one will be an adjective. Examples:

    Word 1--linking vowel-Word 2---Result (compound)

    Mard---------ie-------menel--> Mardiemenel (4.3)

    Alfirin--------a--------sta-----> Alfirinasta (4.2)

    Alfirin--------ya-------ldatar--> Alfirinyaldatar(4.2)

    Ric-----------i--------sse-----> Ricisse (4.2)

    Ric-----------e-------sse-----> Ricesse (4.2)

    Mard is a noun. -ie makes something a noun. Therefore it would be clever to give this noun with an unintentional consonant ending another ending, a vowel ending, which does not change the word's meaning. The noun of a noun is still a noun. Therefore I thought that this could be an universal method to link two words if the first one will be a noun. There might be a difference between abstract noun and noun, but I have a solution for that. I could just transform the noun into an adjective. It does not change anything, for the part of speech of a compound is defined by the second word.

    Same with -a and -ya. Alfirin is an adjective. -a and -ya make something an adjective. Therefore it would be clever to give this adjective with an unintentional consonant ending another ending, a vowel ending, which does not change the word's meaning. The adjective of an adjective is still an adjective. Therefore I thought that this could be an universal method to link two words if the first one will be an adjective.

    It is a bit different with verbs. As far as I know (would be interesting if I'm wrong) there is no way to make something a verb, except -ta, but that would change the meaning dramatically. So, maybe I could use the aorist ending, as Tamas suggested. To make a verb, which results in a consonant, an aorist word, we have to add -e.

    Stem----> Aorist

    Apsen---> Apsene

    Quet----> Quete

    Ócom---> Ócome

    Car-----> Care

    Unfortunately this -e ending changes if we will add a pronominal suffix. It becomes -i-. Therefore the aorist endings are

    -e (no line on the right side, because no new word will come)

    and -i- (a line on the right side, because a new word will come).

    Stem---linking vowel---pronominal suffix

    Car--------i-----------------nye

    Car--------i-----------------lye

    Car--------i-----------------s

    Mel--------i-----------------n

    Yam-------i------------------n

    Therefore I was confused that you said, -e- could be the linking vowel. I asked whether it should not be -i-. I thought that maybe -e just becomes -i- if a pronominal suffix will follow, and that it would stay -e- if another suffix or word will follow. That would explain why it is

    Entul-e-sse

    and not

    Entul-i-sse,

    at least if the -e- really marks the aorist, as you suggested.

  • Linking vowels (Quenya)

    You're giving me an idea here: I could use -e- for verbs, -ie- for nouns and -a or -ya for adjectives, right? Sounds good, just two questions:

    Shouldn't it be -i- for the Aorist stem? I thought that the Aorist endings are -e and -i-. Or is -i- just required if a pronominal suffix will follow, and for all other suffixes and words is -e- allowed?

    Secondly: Is it a problem to transform an adjective into an adjective? Noun into abstract noun will be no problem, there are precedents, it just might change the meaning a bit.

    Well, I could also just make every adjective an abstract noun and every noun an adjective. I think that would not be a problem in compounds.

  • Linking vowels (Quenya)

    I do not know whether linking vowel is the right word for that. Sometimes compounds of two words/affixes do not merge, but have a vowel between the two parts. Sometimes this vowel must be a specific one, for example the suffix -nya. The vowel in front of this suffix must be -i-. Such rules exist for every pronominal suffix, and some others too. But there are other compounds. Some of them are made of word and word instead of word and affix.

    I was searching for the rule wich defines what vowel has to be choosen in what situation, and I thought that I found it: The linking vowel must be identical to the first vowel of the second part;

    heceld-A-mAr

    entul-E-ssE

    er-E-ssE

    er-E-mElda.

    But now I'm not shure whether my rule is right, for I found other compounds which break it:

    Ancal-i-me (but maybe that is actually An-calima with feminine ending)

    Ancal-i-mon (but maybe that is also a derivative of An-calima)

    Hyar-a-storni (but that is weird, because no one knows what astorni or storni mean).

    Mard-o-runando (but maybe the -o- just marks the genitive)

    Melcor-o-híni (maybe also just genitive)

    Atan-a-mir (and here I am at my wits' end)

    So, do you know the rule or could you help me to find it? It would be also helpful if you know more compounds which use such vowels.

    PS. One more thing: when is it even necessary to use such merging/linking vowels? As far as I know it is impossible that more than two consonants are in series without beeing interrupted by a vowel. That would explain why heceldmar, entulsse, ersse, mardrunando and hyarstorni need such a vowel, but what about

    Er-melda -> Ermelda (cf. Narmacil)

    Atan-mir -> Atammir (cf. Elemmacil)

    (and maybe Ancalme/Ancalmon (cf. Menelmacar))?

    Why do they need a linking vowel if there are precedents of similar situations where linking vowel are not used?

  • -ya- Verbs

    Really? I couldn't find it in parf edhellen. I always thought that nearly everything is in here. Anyway, thank you for the quick answer.

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  • -ya- Verbs

    I have a bit trouble to conjugate these Quenya verbs, for some of these forms are nearly unpronouncable. I read that both a and y become replaced by -ie in the perfect tense.

    Simple past, future and aorist are also not my problem, but the present tense.

    I simply can't pronounce -yea and if I try, it will sound like -ya or like the latin ae/german ä.

    Does the y become replaced too, so that the present tense of verbs like horya-, telya- and valya- becomes horea, telea and valea instead of horyea, telyea and valyea? I think that I have read that anywhere, but I can not remember where and I could also not find a -ya- verb whose present tense is known. Could you help me?

    PS. Apropros present tense of strange Quenya verbs. Does anyone of you have an idea what the present tenses of Rea- and Tea- could be like? Réa and Téa??? Maybe it would be easier to give the verbs Aorist and to put a silume-sse or silume-ve infront of them...

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  • Translation for "Book of Wisdom"

    As far as I know, -ie is one of six suffixes which make something an abstract noun or an adverb. One of the five others is -me, so nóleme is already an abstract noun. Maybe I missed something about -ie's meaning, but I would use another suffix, scilicet the genitive ending -o. Then it would be Parma Nólemeo. The prefix o- might be right, I'm not shure about that. You could also use an adjective instead. It would be easiest to use a participle, which is between the two nouns, like ocómina, hostaina or comyaina.

  • All That is Gold Does Not Glitter

    Hi Donna, I tried to translate it into quenya, although you didn't ask for that but the original text. Anyway, if you are interested:

    Ilye engwi, yar malta, lar alate,

    Ala ilye mor, yer Ránar, nainte vanwa;

    Enwine engwi, yar voronda, lante quele,

    Nicusse úpole anya tumne sulcannar.

    Náre nai eccoituva Yúlallo,

    Cala nai eccapuva ungwellon;

    Nai i rácina russe oluva envinyanta,

    I arríendo nai nauva ata aran.

    I usually used the aorist, but also the future tense after nai. La has a lot of meanings, it is also a verb, so don't be confused. Most of the words which I used are pretty easy, but I think that I have to explain the most complicated ones;

    úpole has the prefix ú- (not) and the aorist form of pol- (can).

    Eccapuva is a compound of et- (out), cap- (leap) and -uva (future tense). I could have used Tuia- too, but i was not certain about the future tense. Tuiuva?

    Arriendo is a compound of al- (less), ríe (crown) and -ndo (personal ending). Other words would have been possible too, like ríencando (ríe-enca-ndo).

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