Comments by Tom Bombadil
These are the 10 posts of 114 by Tom Bombadil.
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Gloss “ndangwetha” by Eldamo Import
If this is Primitive Quendian or Common Eldarin, wouldn't we see for Sindarin
Ndangwetʰa > Ndanbetʰa > Ndambetʰa > Ndambetʰ > Ndambet > Dambet > Dambed > Dammed > Damed?
That is, if Old-Noldorin -tʰ > -t still applies. In PE/395, Ndangwetha isn't assigned a language; and I'd say it's more likely to be late Old Sindarin or early Middle Sindarin, formed at a time after w- > gw-, but before nd- > d- and with the PQ form of the second element being wetʰā. This would explain why gw didn't turn into b (the g- developed later, maybe by analogy), why the -a didn't vanish in CE (it was originally long) and why the -th remained (because it was at the time not final).
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How do ancient vowel suppression and prothesis work?
There are several cases where Sindarin words seem to have lost internal vowels in a way unrelated to the loss of morpheme-boundary vowels in Middle Sindarin, and more reminding of the syncope processes seen in Quenya and Doriathren. For instance
PQ *Tamana > CS Tavn
ANAD > CS And
PQ *Talata- > OS Taltha-
(PQ *Oronē >) MS †Oron > CS Orn
to name just a few. At first I thought Sindarin was influenced by Doriathren/Quenya and randomly employed the syncope for some words while not doing so for most others; however, this doesn't hold up for several reasons. First, there are even (late) Primitive Quendian (or maybe early Common Eldarin) terms exhibiting a similar vowel loss, like
CE Ostō < PQ *Osotō < SOT,
CE As'tāră < PQ *Asatāra < SATAR,
CE Alkwā < PQ *Alakwā < ALAK,
CE Stalgondō < PQ *Stalagondō < STALAG
and it's even represented in some roots:
MIZDI < MISID
ANDA < ANAD
and unlike the usual syncopes of Arda, not all lost vowels have a similar vowel in the preceding syllable.
CE Nki < *Niki
CE ū̆k’lā < PQ *ūkalā < KAL
CE K'lā < PQ *Kalā < KAL
So, this seems to be not a syncope as in Doriathren/Quenya/etc. and it's also not random. For instance, roots of the form (C)VnVd always lose their second vowel in the extended form, e.g.
CE Kwendī < KWEN(ED)
CE Wendē < WEN(ED)
CE Spindē < SPIN(ID)
CE Andā < ANAD
Now, if there is a set of consistent rules behind all this, I can't see it, and maybe I'm just messing three different processes here, but can anyone tell me what's going on with word-internal lost vowels? How can PQ *Tamana become CS Tavn, while PQ Lamana becomes CS Lavan?
PS. I couldn't find an Eldamo article on vowel-suppression in the Primitive Elvish Phonetics section, but I think there ought to be one. The process can't have been in the language from the very beginning, because the vowel-suppression seems to have taken place after certain ancient changes like:
V̄CC > VCC (else ū̆k’lā would be uk'lā),
VyC > ViC (else PQ Yuyuñal would be Q Yúial),
VŋV > VɣV (else PQ Yuyuñal might never have lost ñ, since y is a C and it's not said that CŋV > CɣV)
Telerin cl > cul (else PQ *Acalar, yielding S Aglar, would become Telerin Acular instead of Aclar (cf. Hecul))
On the other hand it must have been a fairly ancient process, occuring before other CE developments like:
sd > zd (CE Ezdē might otherwise be Esdē. Also MISID > MIZDI and not MISDI)
CE loss of -a/-e/-o (cf. As'tāră, and CE And(a))
CE change of -i/-u to -e/-o in polysyllables (else Nki would be Nke)
PPS. By the way, why is it necessary to add a prosthetic to KALAR in order to deduce a word like Akalara from it? Wouldn't Kalara do as well? Since when do we need more than a root and a suffix to form a word in PQ? And is this prosthetic maybe responsible for the lost vowel in Ak'lara, or is the occurence of both a coincidence?
Thanks in advance for your answers.
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Naming conventions among the Dunedain/Men of the West?
Sure thing, late neologisms like Angrenost use A-affected stems. My point was just that many if not most of late Sindarin's compounds aren't late but early neologisms, which were already attested as compounds in Old-Sindarin. And at least the Gondorians are frequently seen to use respectively ancient terms already known from Beleriand, such as Túrin, Húrin, Denethor, Ecthelion, and Minas Tirith.
So, since Dúnedain can use compounds as ancient or even more ancient than from 7000 years ago, but can also form Third Age neologisms, I wanted to provide forms for both scenarios.
And nebinnog I brought up for the sake of a complete list and because I read it here www.eldamo.org, but as I said, there are so many alternative forms Tolkien gave that I wouldn't and didn't include it into an argument.
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Naming conventions among the Dunedain/Men of the West?
Thanks a lot for giving a second opinion, I'm fine with most of your version too, though I'd say in many cases that mine are still possible alternatives. And you're right about Fen Hollen of course: Dúnedain do handle mutation differently because they can't pronounce certain sounds in their dialect.
Yet, I'd also say there are reasons not related to phonetics why Dúnedain make mistakes/alternative choices/whatever in mutation. I find at least Lond Daer and Imloth Melui are pretty unambiguous examples.
Anywhay, about the mutations, I was relying considerably on Fiona Jallings' Fan's Guide to Neosindarin (317/318), where she argues it were authentic for an uneducated Dúnadan to make mutation mistakes, for instance replacing liquid mutation with soft mutation (That and Narbeleth are for instance the reason why I said Nargolon, whereas if you use the root and liquid mutation, Narcholon is the correct Classical Sindarin term).
About the stems, I think there has been a misunderstanding, so allow me to explain my reasoning. When I said Angrenost should be Angrinost, I didn't mean every elf in the Third Age would have said Angrinost, I meant that if the compound were in the language since the early First Age, it should have developed into Angrinost instead. A-affection had of course long since taken place in the Third Age, yet it could only happen at the end of a word. Angarinā > Angarina > Angarena > Angaren > Angren. However, if we build the compound in Old-Sindarin, we would get Angarinostō > Angarinosto > Angarinost > Angrinost. The A would have disappeared, and even if it hadn't, A-affection doesn't take place in the middle of a word, but only if the -a is final.
We have several examples where interior A-affection has not taken place; Celebrimbor, Celebrindal, Celebrindor, Lórindol, Nebinnog, Thuringud, Thuringwethil
and some where it appears to have happened: Angrenost, Calembel, Calenardhon, Calenhad, Erebor, Mithrellas, Nibennog.
Now, I find it remarkable that nearly all those without A-affection are related to the First Age, while nearly all those containing A-affected stems are related to Gondor or at least the Second/Third Age. There are only two exceptions: first, Celebrindor, but that may have been analogy with Celebrimbor/Celebrindal (or some Arnorian being a language-historian), and second, Nibennog/Nebinnog, but Tolkien vacillated so much there that I wouldn't consider them here to build a theory.
In several dictionaries one will find (g)lórin, Thurin, or Celebrin, but in Sindarin they are, as far as I know, only attested in compounds, not as words. In the case of Celebrin-, Thurin-, we even have the Noldorin form Celebren and the Ilkorin Thúren as a word attested.
Finally, there is also one case where both forms are attested in Sindarin: Silivren/Silevren.
Thus it was my conclusion that in old compounds, where the first element had not yet undergone A-affection, it never would, whereas in modern compounds, especially from the Dúnedain, the A-affected forms were put together, ignoring the historical stem. Thus,
PQ Angā + -rinā + ostō > PQ Angarinostō > CS > Angrinost, while
CS Ang + -ren + ost > CS Angrenost.
Silevren/Silivren indicate in my opinion that using both is possible, just one form is more archaic than the other. Thus, I wanted to employ this as an archaism as often as possible. Besides, this is Neosindarin, so we can choose when the word entered the languages, and how educated the one inventing it was. If we're talking about late neologisms, then, as we both agree, one would use the a-affected stems - even though that doesn't make historical sense.
I see above that you rather use the roots instead of the adjectives (sometimes other roots than I did), and don't make Taur- an exception from au>o/ó because it's in the first syllable. That's fine too, of course. There's just one thing with which I would disagree: an 'o' in a later syllable would prevent au>o/ó in a former (www.eldamo.org), so I would rather stick with Taurion instead of Tórion/Torion. Besides, that would make it more like Tauriel.
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Naming conventions among the Dunedain/Men of the West?
Hi again.
First, I'm no Sindarin expert, I'm just doing Sindarin for a year now, and even if I were, Sindarin compound-building is one of the most complicated (and most debated) parts of the already hardest elvish language. Some of your names really make me love Quenya all the more; nearly everything is easier in Quenya.
Fortunately though, the Dúnedain felt the same way, and making mistakes in regard to mutation, historical stems, or other historical rules is one of the key features of their dialect. For instance, in historically correct Sindarin, we would expect Dúnedain-related terms like Angrenost, Fen Hollen, Imloth Melui, Galadwen, Athrad Daer, Lond Daer, etc. to be Angrinost, Fen Chollen, Imloth Velui, Galadhwen, Athrad Dhaer, Lon(d) Dhaer, etc. So, wherever possible, I'll throw in some mistakes of the same sort, especially regarding stems, and mark them with DS, but I'll also try to tell the (historically) correct Sindarin forms, marked with CS.
Thus, I would translate the names as follows:
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Firecarrier - Nargolon
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Determined spear - Einídhan(-nen)
2a. Determined bow - Pingnídhan(-nen) (CS)/Pengnídhan(-nen) (DS)
2b. Determined sword - Megillídhan(-nen)
2c. Determined oak - Doronnídhan(-nen)
- Forest wanderer - Taurrandir
3a. Son of the forest - Taurion
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Tall spear - Rodaith/Brannaith
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Silent watcher - Tirdínen/Cenordhínen
5a. Silent wanderer - Tirrandir/Cenorrandir
- Bold spear - Berinaith (CS)/Berenaith (DS)
6a. Bold sword - Berimmegil (CS)/Beremmegil (DS)
6b. Bold arrow - Berimbilin (CS)/Berembilin (DS)
- Steadfast oak - Doronhador/Doronnorn (CS)/Doronthorn (DS)
7a. Steadfast spear - Eithador/Eithorn
- Eager/fiery mind - Imbalch (CS)/Imbalc (DS)/Infair/(Imbara)
8a. Eager/fiery wanderer - Randirvalch (CS)/Randirvalc (DS)/Randirfair/(Randirvara)
8b. Eager/fiery spear - Eithvalch (CS)/Eithvalc (DS)/Feraith/(Eithvara)
You may still choose the CS forms; sometimes Dúnedain spoke Sindarin without mistakes/dialect, like in ú-chebin (where Gilraen could pronounce ch), Celebrindor (where the historically correct stem-form Celebrin- was employed), or Athrad Dhaer (where Daer was correctly mutated). The DS forms are just some mistakes, which a Dúnadan would have been very likely to do.
About 2: Einídhan is quite speculative; dh disappears before nasals (cf. Golovir<Golodhmír), but there are no Sindarin examples of th before nasals known to me. It could be Eithnídhan instead.
Also, Sindarin passive participles of a-verbs can end in -an or -annen. Choosing -annen is more common, but I think these words are already long enough and -an is possible too.
About 4: Brand (Brann-) is both metaphorical and physical greatness, but Raud (Rod-) is rather metaphorical greatness.
About 8: Before he wrote LotR, Tolkien used Bara for fiery/eager. After LotR, the root BARAS, from which Bara is derived, rather meant greatness, so, for the sake of LotR-style elvish, I'd avoid bara and rather use Fair (ready/prompt), or balch (fierce/ferocious). Bara might be able to mean both great and eager, or it might only mean great. Many Sindarin authors use Bara for eager. It might still be fine. We don't know. Fair and Balch are definitely safe, though with a slightly different meaning.
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Naming conventions among the Dunedain/Men of the West?
Sure. And about the theme, I don't know of any strict rules regarding men (those of elves are better known, see here for those of elves tolkiengateway.net), I just meant there are some names that are obviously related to religion or elves, like Elrohir (elf-knight), so they would be a bit weird for humans, but I'd say none of the above are like that.
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Naming conventions among the Dunedain/Men of the West?
Hi,
In the late Third Age, Dúnedain usually give their children Sindarin names. Also, we often recognise a Dúnadan's name not just as an elvish name, but as the name of another known elf (Ecthelion, Denethor, Mablung, etc.)
The princes of Dol Amroth seem sometimes to cling to the native Númenórean language Adûnaic, but elsewhere that is avoided among Elf-friends since the end of the Second Age because Adûnaic is usually associated with Black Númenóreans. Given the history with Angmar, we can expect this in Arnor all the more.
We may expect some Westron names, especially for Gondorians/Arnorians who are not descended from Númenóreans, but if that's the case, then at least I don't know of any such example.
In the Second and early Third Age, royal Dúnedain were named in Quenya, but, at least for royalty in Arnor, those times are gone for more than 2000 years, and also stewards of Gondor choose rather Sindarin names.
Regarding commoners, we have fewer examples, but we already find traces of Sindarin in Dúnedain-names more than 5000 years before Lotr (Núneth), and lots of them during Lotr (Mablung, Beregond, Halbarad, etc.), so Sindarin is the language of choice for an Arnorian/Gondorian, especially if they are descended from the Elf-friends of the Second Age.
Since every Sindarin name has a meaning, I'd say you can choose any Sindarin name you want, as long as the meaning makes sense in the context. Just avoid names starting with Ar- (Aragorn, Arathorn, Arveleg, Argeleb, Arvedui, etc.). That's for royalty only. For the heirs of Isildur that's fine, for everyone else not so much.
Also mind that in the Dúnedain dialect of the late Third Age, y is pronounced like i, whereas ch is h in the middle of a word, and it's -k at its end. So Classical Sindarin Rocheryn (horse of the lady) would be in Arnorian Sindarin written like Roheryn, and probably pronounced Roherin.
Here are some names that are Sindarin and borne by Dúnedain. Sometimes Tolkien didn't translate them, but most of the time we can guess their components.
Gondorians:
Alphros (maybe swan-foam), Angbor (iron-fist), Baranor (maybe hot fire), Belecthor (maybe mighty eagle), Beren (the bold), Bergil (maybe valiant star), Boromir (steadfast jewel), Borondir (steadfast man), Damrod (maybe hammerer of copper), Denethor (maybe lithe-and-lank), Derufin (maybe manly hair/intelligence), Duinhir (lord of the river), Egalmoth (sharp uprising flower), Elphir (maybe swan-lord), Eradan (single man), Faramir (maybe jewel of hunt(ing)), Findegil (maybe skilled pencil), Galador (maybe lord of light/tree), Herion (maybe son of the lord), Hirgon (commander of the lord), Húrin (vigorous heart), Iorlas (maybe old leaf), Mablung (Heavy Hand), Saelon (wise man), Targon (maybe noble lord), Thorondir (eagle-man), Túrin (master-mind), Udalraph (the stirrupless (rider)), Anborn, Beregond, Berelach, Dervorin, Duilin, Ecthelion
Fíriel (mortal maiden), Galadwen (tree maiden), Ioreth (old woman), Ivriniel (daughter of ivrin), Lothíriel (maybe daughter of the flower-lord), Rían (queen or crown-gift), Berúthiel
Arnorians:
Beleg (the great/mighty), Celebrindor (silver lord), Dírhael (wise man), Gilbarad (star-tower), Halbarad (maybe high-tower), Malbeth (golden word), Mallor (maybe the golden), Malvegil (golden sword), Thorongil (eagle of the star), Amlaith, Celepharn
Gilraen (one adorned with a tressure set with small gems in its network), Ivorwen
Númenórians:
Elros (star-foam), Hatholdir (axe-man)
Núneth (woman of the west)
Many of them appear in Lotr, so if you don't want anyone to get confused by associating the name with someone else, don't use these:
Anborn, Angbor, Baranor, Beregond, Beren, Bergil, Boromir, Damrod, Denethor, Derufin, Dervorin, Duilin, Duinhir, Ecthelion, Faramir, Halbarad, Hirgon, Húrin, Mablung, Targon, Ioreth.
Also, the names Baranor, Dírhael, Herion and Ioreth - though well known from Tolkien - appear in Shadow of Mordor as well, and, whether you accept that as canon or not, you might want avoid them too.
I hope this helped.
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rɣ > rg in Middle Sindarin?
Stupid me, of course it isn't the same pattern. So, a false compound is one that is X-Y = X of Y, which is semantically more as if there were two seperate words, and it means that there is no mutation but all other historical processes take place, don't they?
And, to come back to Old-Sindarin/early Middle Sindarin; there, it would not be one word "Auregaladat", but rather two more or less seperated words, like "Aure-Galadato", which joined some time after mutation time was over in Middle Sindarin, right? I mean, it must have had some kind of history.
And, one more thing, about Aerandir; I thought that were a case of haplology, since it would be Old-Sindarin Gairarandēr.
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rɣ > rg in Middle Sindarin?
Then, I guess the Old-Sindarin/Primitive Quendian terms Gilyā and Gilyi were abandoned by Tolkien?
Also, I didn't know the way in which the parts of a compound interact semantically had actual phonetic effects on it. It would explain Ormenel and Orbelain as well, but there are so many other tatpurusha compounds that show regular mutations, like elvellyn, calardan, rochben, eluwaith, etc. Shouldn't they all be equally false compounds then?
I mean, they all follow the same pattern of Or-galadh; X-Y = Y of X. How would one recognice whether a tatpurusha compound is a false compound? Also, they seem to be not completely unhistorical since au > o when it became part of a polysyllable. So, which historical rules would be disabled in a false compound and which wouldn't?
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rɣ > rg in Middle Sindarin?
Hello everyone,
I would expect Old-Sindarin Aure-galada-t to become Classical Sindarin Orialadhad, not Orgaladhad.
-re + g- > -reg- > -reɣ- > -rɣ- > -ri-, isn't it?
And the same could be said about Orgilion; why not Orilion? May it be that rɣ > rg happened in Middle Sindarin, as it happened in Vanyarin too?
Vg > Vɣ and the loss of morpheme boundary vowels are well documented, but I could only find Noldorin examples for rɣ > ri and none for rɣ > r.
If it became rg instead, we'd have to rethink Tarias and Díriel for purposes of Neo-Sindarin, since they are Noldorin and Orgaladh(ad)/Orgilion are Sindarin.