Help With Name Translation

Timothy Poe #3057

Hi everyone, I am very new to the grammar behind Toliken's languages and was hoping for some guidance. I am trying to develop a Quenya name for my wife and want to see if I am translating my ideas properly, here's what I have:

Vanëisil - Beautiful/fair moon

Isilien - Daughter of the moon

Amillëisil - Mother of the moon

Mélvanëisil - I think this is beautiful moon but with the emotion of love?

any suggestions for ideas would be great too, the moon is a symbol of our marriage so I'm hoping to find something that plays with that idea, I chose Quenya because I think the ancient and regal nature of the language is fitting for my wife but I would love any alternative or corrections, thank you, namárië!

Ellanto #3060

Hello Timothy!

A few comments:

The diaeresis (ë) is strictly optional, feel free to omit it.

I would also say that Sindarin is no less ancient than Quenya, if perhaps somewhat less regal. If you want suggestions in Sindarin, I would happily provide you some.

As for the names you formed, there are some problems to address:

  • Vanëisil > Vanisil. In such a compound the final -e ellides before the initial i- of the next element.
  • Instead of Isilien for "daughter of the moon" I would offer Isiliel. Whilst it is true that the -ien suffix was, in one source, glossed as a feminine patronymic, such use is not actually attested anywhere, whereas -iel is a well attested feminine patronymic in both Quenay and Sindarin.
  • Amillëisil > Emillisil (same story as with Vanisil above).
  • Mélvanëisil. This one's trickier. There is the word vanimelda, which can mean both "beautiful and beloved" and "elven-fair"; but a compound with this one would looks somewhat silly perhaps, Vanimeldaisil doesn't seem very pleasing to me. Hypothetically Vanimeldisil might be a viable option, but I don't know how well supported that is, so I cannot recommend it. An potential alternative can be made using melin, which can be seen as a synonym of melda; thus it can produce Vanimelinisil, but that is still much too long for my taste.

I should also note that, as far as Elvish naming traditions may be concerned, it may be viewed as somewhat sacriligious or disrespectful to name an Elf "mother of the moon", or even "daughter of the moon" (though that one might be permissible). That does not preclude you from using such a name for you wife, of course, but you should consider that such a name would not fit in-universe. Of these, I think Vanisil is the best option.

If you have any further questions, please feel free to ask!

Timothy Poe #3061

Ellanto,

Thank you so much for this throughout response and guidance Vanisil is my favorite as well (it seems easy to pronounce, i'm assuming just Va-ni-sil?). I have loved the original LOTR for most of my life but have only recently gotten into the deeper lore and the unfinished tales. Is it strange that I am choosing a Queyna name, would it be safer to use Sindarin? Thank you for your help!

Ellanto #3062

I cannot say that Sindarin would be safer, no. Our understanding of both languages is incomplete, but generally speaking our knowledge of Sindarin is more limited, and thus more speculative. That being said, I am personally better versed in Sindarin than in Quenya (having neglected my Quenya for a long while).

There may be lore-related consideration pertaining to the choice between Quenya and Sindarin. Quenya is the language of the Ñoldor in Valinor; the Vanyar have their own, closely related yet different dialect, of which we do not know much at all. The Ñoldor brought it to Middle-earth with their exile, but due to political influences it ceased to be their daily language, and became a language of lore. It later regained some prominence in Númenor, now spoken by humans, but by the 3rd Age it was purely a language of lore in Middle-earth. Meanwhile Sindarin became the spoken, daily tongue of the Ñoldor (and obviously the Sindar) in Middle-earth back in the 1st Age, and remained so later.

So from that point of view, you could figure out which language to use based on the context you want to give this name. But that is of course just one approach; meanwhile it is also perfectly acceptable to simply choose whichever language you like best, based on whatever criteria you choose.

As to Vanisil - the pronunciation is straitforward indeed. Just make sure your vowels are not diphthongs, and that you stress the first syllable, Vanisil. Appendix E in the Lord of the Rings explains the pronunciations relatively well, but I can try to explain more myself if you want.

I will note this though: the word isil and some other words that you will see written with 's' (but not all!) were originally pronounced with a þ instead (the sound of 'th' in think, [θ] in IPA), and still are by some, including loremasters; this phenomenon is expanded upon in the Shibboleth of Feanor (in The Peoples of Middle-earth). So that is another option for the pronunciation.

Timothy Poe #3064

Ellanto,

I cannot thank you enough for your help in this and sharing this great lore. It is refreshing to find this community as I am really the only person I know who loves this world as much as I do and often feel quite isolated in my passion so again thank you for all the help!

Ellanto #3067

Always a pleasure!

If you are interested in an active community focused on Tolkienian linguistics, you might want to take a look at the Vinyë Lambengolmor discord server.