Weapons names

Rínor #3204

Ok, now trying my hand at some weapons names. Hopefully I caught all the rules for them. Crossing my fingers!

Pínaglar “little radiance” (dagger) pîn adj. “little” + aglar n. “radiance” circumflex always becomes acute (i.e. î > í, shortening the over-long vowel to a long vowel

Tornathor “forest saver” (Bow) taur n. forest + natha verb save + -or suf. “agental suffix” AU in polysyllabic words become Ó/O

Ithrollad “wizard wood” (Staff) ithron n. wizard + glad n. wood (the gl in glad become l) and n in ithron become L if the second element starts with an L.

Dedagnir “shadow slayer” (short sword) dae n. shadow + dagnir n. slayer [au], [ae] became [o], [e] in polysyllables

Angalad “iron light” (Sword) ang n. iron + calad n. light

Ellanto #3221

I should caution that name formation is by far the most complicated topic in Sindarin, and beginners should generally avoid it. There are ~140 or so phonological rules to take into account in order to form compounds correctly.

I cannot at present delve into these more deeply, but at a glance:

  • Ithrollad should be Ithronglad, cf. ninglor.
  • Dedagnir should be Dennagnir, since dag- is from NDAK. Furthermore i-affection may apply (it is mostly optional in names though), so could also be dennegnir.
Rínor #3265

Thank you Ellanto, I have been pouring over the rules, and observing how the phonetic developments take place. And yes their is a lot, but I believe I am starting to understand how they are formed, following the Naurhîr example to Narchir. And observing how names are comprised and fill I am getting a better understanding of them. I overview how ndak- formed and would fall under [mb], [nd] became [mm], [nn] and how voiceless stops voiced after vowels k > g. I just find it fascinating.

Rínor #3311

Here are my new names and reasonings behind them. I think I have observed all rules and have thoroughly gone through everything multiple times. Am I on the right track?

dai-ndak-ndē̆r

  • Sindarin Rule 18 [ē], [ō] became [ī], [ū] daindakndîr
  • Sindarin Rule 26 voiceless stops voiced after vowels daindagndîr
  • Sindarin Rule 34 [ai], [oi] became [ae], [oe] daendagndîr
  • Sindarin Rule 48 [ī], [ū] often shortened in polysyllables daendagndir
  • Sindarin Rule 50 [au], [ae] became [o], [e] in polysyllables dendagndir
  • Sindarin Rule 53 [mb], [nd] became [mm], [nn] dennagnnir
  • Sindarin Rule 54 middle consonants frequently vanished in clusters
    1. Dennagnir “Shadow Slayer”

aθaia-taur

  • Sindarin Rule 26 voiceless stops voiced after vowels aθaiadaur
  • Sindarin Rule 33 short vowels vanished before morpheme boundaries aθaidaur
  • Sindarin Rule 34 [ai], [oi] became [ae], [oe] aθaedaur
  • Sindarin Rule 50 [au], [ae] became [o], [e] in polysyllables
    1. Athedor “Healing Wood”

cûm-mbelek

  • Sindarin Rule 26 voiceless stops voiced after vowels cûmmbeleg
  • Sindarin Rule 48 [ī], [ū] often shortened in polysyllables cúmmbeleg
  • Sindarin Rule 53 [mb], [nd] became [mm], [nn] cúmmmeleg
  • Sindarin Rule 54 middle consonants frequently vanished in clusters cúmmeleg
  • Sindarin Rule 63 [mm] shortened
    1. Cúmeleg “Great Bow”

pîn-aklar

  • Sindarin Rule 26 voiceless stops voiced after vowels pînaglar
  • Sindarin Rule 48 [ī], [ū] often shortened in polysyllables
    1. Pinaglar “Little Gory”

aŋga-kalata

  • Sindarin Rule 23 short final vowels vanished aŋgakalat
  • Sindarin Rule 26 voiceless stops voiced after vowels aŋgagalad
  • Sindarin Rule 33 short vowels vanished before morpheme boundaries aŋggalad
  • Sindarin Rule 54 middle consonants frequently vanished in clusters
    1. Angalad “Iron Light”

Not a weapons name it’s a house name. mbar-torna

  • Sindarin Rule 1 initial nasals vanished before stops bartorna
  • Sindarin Rule 23 short final vowels vanished bartorn
  • Sindarin Rule 26 voiceless stops voiced after vowels
    1. Bardorn “Hidden Home”
Ellanto #3315

I think Dennagnir is correctly formed (note that I would not apply [ae] > [e] on a stressed syllable, but here it should be fine). However, I mentioned it on another thread the other day, I do not recommend dae for "shadow", see the discussion here. I would recommend esgal instead, though that might yield a compound that is too long (Esgaldagnir), so perhaps hall instead, derived from the same root (esgal < ✶ṣkalā, hall < ✶skalla), thus Haldagnir.

✶atʰajā·taurē > Athaedor; rule S50 ([ae] > [e]) shouldn't apply here because the syllable is stressed, and not even superheavy to begin with; applying it would also obscure the position of the stress in the word. In general the [ae] > [e] change seems to be much less common than [au] > [ō]/[o].

Regarding cú + beleg:

A few things to note here:

  • First, regarding the root of beleg. It is the same root as the Quenya name Melkor, which clearly comes from ✶mbelekōre, where the initial [mb] turns into [m] in Quenya - thus √MBELEK. However, there is evidence that the Sindarin derivatives of this root actually come from √BELEK: we have the following attested examples:

    • Cûl Veleg "Bigload", where we see beleg lenited into veleg rather than meleg as we'd expect if it was derived from a form starting with mb-.

    • Taur-i-Melegyrn "Forest of the Great Trees", where we see the definite plural form of belegorn "great-tree" as i-melegyrn, showing the typical nasal mutation of a simple [b]; if it was derived from [mb-], it would be i-mbelegyrn.

    • Arveleg ("Noble-mighty"?); here, if beleg was derived from [mb-], we'd see Arbeleg instead.

  • Second thing to note here is that derives from ✶kūma, not just kūm; this would affect the compound.

With this in mind, the development would go thus:

✶kūma·beleke > kūma·βeleke > kūma·veleke > kūma·velek > kūma·veleg > kūm·veleg > kūmbeleg > kumbeleg > kummeleg > kumeleg = Cumeleg.

This is ultimately very very similar to what you arrived at. Technically I could've just said "note that intervocalic [m] in Sindarin counts as a cluster and thus the preceding vowel should shorten", but I wanted to show you the process more clearly.

Pinaglar and Angalad seem correct.

Bardorn -- this can also be Barthorn, if derived from ✶mbar; if from ✶mbara, or if a later compound, then Bardorn would be expected indeed.

However I'd say Bardolen < dolen "hidden" would be a less controversial form for "Hidden Home". I personally take no issue with torn "hidden", but some people do.

Rínor #3317

Thank you Ellanto. I like Haldagnir, and I see what you dea. :)

I am assuming this is how it would be derived.

skalla-ndak-ndē̆r

  • Sindarin Rule 3 initial [s] vanished before spirants khallandakndē̆r
  • Sindarin Rule 18 [ē], [ō] became [ī], [ū] khalladakndîr
  • Sindarin Rule 25 initial [x-] became [h-] hallandakndē̆r
  • Sindarin Rule 26 voiceless stops voiced after vowels hallandagndîr
  • Sindarin Rule 33 short vowels vanished before morpheme boundaries hallndagndîr
  • Sindarin Rule 48 [ī], [ū] often shortened in polysyllables hallndagndir
  • Sindarin Rule 53 [mb], [nd] became [mm], [nn] hallndagnnir
  • Sindarin Rule 54 middle consonants frequently vanished in clusters halldagnir
  • Sindarin Rule 54 middle consonants frequently vanished in clusters

Haldagnir “Shadow Slayer” Although a little confused on nd to nn. Since in changes in ndir it should also change in ndag creating llnn. So a little confused with that one. LOL

I want to make sure understand it a little more the Aθedor vs Aθeador.

Athedor

  • The word is trisyllabic (A-θe-dor).
  • Following the rules for trisyllabic words, we have to determine if the second syllable is heavy or light to know where the stress falls.
  • he second syllable "θe" is light (a short vowel followed by no more than one consonant).
  • According to the rules, since the second syllable is light, the stress falls on the first syllable.
  • Thus, the pronunciation would be Áthedor with the stress on the first syllable.

Atheador

  • This word is trisyllabic as well (A-θae-dor).
  • Here, the second syllable "θae" includes a diphthong.
  • A diphthong makes a syllable heavy.
  • Therefore, for heavy second syllables, the stress falls on it.
  • Hence, the pronunciation should be Atháedor with the stress on the second syllable.

vs. Athelas

  • A disyllabic word, consisting of (Aθe-las)
  • For disyllabic words, the stress is always on the first syllable. Hence, it would be on the first syllable, resulting in the pronunciation Áthelas

I used (´) over the stressed syllable to show where it would be. Do I have that right?

And you are correct I should have started with kūma. I have done it with others and skipped that step. I was thinking ahead when I did and knew it already vanished. But if I was using √BELEK it would in fact do a different procression like you showed. Thank you for showing me the progression. :)

I originally had Bardolen but wasn't sure I was forming it right. Because dolen looked like it came from ndulla and ina. to form dolen. I couldn't find how the ll reduced to l. Only one was S59 final [ll], [nn], [ss] shortened in polysyllables and it is not the final ll. So I regrouped and looked at torn. Unless it came from ᴹ√(N)DUL and was ndula?

Ellanto #3324

The [nd] > [nn] change would only happen postvocallically (i.e. after a vowel), as far as I know. Or, perhaps, it simply doesn't happen initially and following a morpheme boundary? My notes are conflicting... Could look into this some other time, it doesn't change anything here. What you have here is this:

✶skalla·ndak·ndēr > sxalla·ndak·ndēr > xalla·ndak·ndēr > xalla·ndak·ndīr > halla·ndak·ndīr > halla·ndag·ndīr > hallndagndīr

Now here we come to the application of rule S54, the simplification of long consonant clusters, and things are a bit less trivial. Hypothetically we would at this point expect Haldagdir, and for that matter, we would generally expect ✶ndak·ndēr > dagdir; so why is it dagnir? We don't have a straightforward answer, but it may be proposed that what we see here is a dissimilatory process.

Sindarin seems to disfavor multiple [d]'s in a single word, and we have evidence for that in Finrod (instead of Findrod, whereas -ndr- is a very common cluster), for example. Thus, since the [d] here can be avoided by dropping it in favour of [n], we get dagnir instead of dagdir. And so:

hallndagndīr > haldagnīr > Haldagnir.

Athelas is a very good counter example to what I said about [ae] > [e]! However, if you search through the Sindarin corpus, you will actually find many many exceptions to the [ae] > [e] rule, e.g. Aeglos, Aegnor, Aeluin, Daeron, Annael, Dirhael, Gilraen, Maedros...

What follows now is less of an answer and more of my own thought process:

Let's suppose [ae] > [e] does not apply to disyllabic words, only longer ones (thereby actually ignoring some important examples of the rule, e.g. niphred, negra-, mewrim, but let's leave them for now). Now we find examples such as Aerandir, Belegaer, Agarwaen, Naeramarth, Crissaegrim, Gwahaedir, Faelivrin, Hithaeglir, Linaewen (not the full list). These can be divided into three groups:

  • [ae] in the stressed syllable: Crissaegrim, Gwahaedir, Hithaeglir, Linaewen.

  • [ae] in the first pretonic syllable (i.e. the syllable preceding the stressed syllable): Aerandir, Naeramarth, Faelivrin.

  • [ae] in the final syllable: Belegaer, Agarwaen.

The first group even tolerates superheavy syllables, and these are the examples I was thinking of when I said, earlier, that the reduction shouldn't happen in a stressed syllable. Particularly, had it happened in a stressed syllable that is not superheavy, it would turn the syllable into a light one, and obscure the position of the stress, like in athelas, the sole counter-example - more on that later.

The second group may (or may not...) suggest that [ae] should not reduce in the initial syllable. I would posit that the forces at play are, primarily, stress, the weight of the syllable, and whether or not it is initial; therefore I would posit that an unstressed initial [ae] in a superheavy syllable might reduce after all - but we have no examples. Either way, a counter-example to this group would be negra-, which is even stressed initially in most conjugations...

The final group suggests that a final (and thus inherently unstressed) [ae] might stay as it is; however, we then see niphred as a counter-example. A closer look at the corpus reveals that (unless I missed something) all attested cases of [ae] in the final syllable of a polysyllabic word (including 2 syllables) end in a sonorant consonant (= not an obstruent = not a stop or a fricative), with the following exceptions: rovaed, úthaes, pelthaes, Helcharaes, and the deleted harvaed (deleted by Tolkien, that is; so we shall ignore it). Let's review them one by one:

  • rovaed is a superlative of maed "skillful", so perhaps it can be excused due to possibly being a late morphological form.

  • úthaes, itself derived through dissimilation from úthaeth, is prefixed with the negative element ú-, so perhaps can also be treated as a morphological form.

  • pelthaes is Noldorin (=draft Sindarin), derived from ✶peltakse; this, with mature Sindarin phonological development, becomes pellach, thus not relevant.

  • Helcharaes is also Noldorin, and a cognate of Q. Helcaraxe; thus in mature Sindarin it should be Helcharach, and also irrelevant.

Based on this data I would be inclined to conclude that [ae] in the final syllable of a polysyllabic word is tolerated before sonorants and in cases of morphological prefixes applied to words that already have it there; before obstruents, however, it would reduce in polysyllables (e.g. niphraed > niphred).

The case of mewrim, a class plural of maew "gull", is interesting, because here the [ae] is reduced in a morphological form, in a stressed initial position; it does however simplify a superheavy cluster. I would guess that the presence of the semi-vowel [w] is the deciding factor in this one.

And that leads us back to the case of athelas -- and I really have no answer for this one. Given clear examples of similarly structured words where the reduction didn't happen (Gwahaedir, Linaewen), athelas seems aberrant.

A further thing to consider is the question of stress. This topic definitely requires more research, and I am not sure there's even enough data in Sindarin to go on... But I would somewhat cautiously assume that, at this relatively late stage of the phonological development of Sindarin, no segmental process would normally occur that would turn a stressed heavy syllable into a light syllable, with one sole notable exception: [mm] > [m], which is a late universal change in Sindarin, not always evident in spelling, which Tolkien explains specifically, and mentions that it does not affect stress, e.g. Naeramarth is pronounced with stress on the second syllable (and this is one of those instances where Tolkien says one thing and does another; if he followed his own convention, he'd spell it Naerammarth, to clarify the position of the stress - though it would still be pronounced with an ungeminated [m]).

In other words, what I am saying is that I would be cautious and assume that [ae] > [e] in athelas is an irregular/aberrant change that we shouldn't repeat ourselves.

Which is all to say that I am still in favour of Athaedor rather than Athedor.

Final note: dolen is from ✶ndulina, derived directly from the root, thus no geminated [l] to deal with in the first place; at least that is how I would reconstruct it.

Rínor #3360

I think I found something in Primitive Elvish Phonetics that might explain the ndak·ndēr ✶medial nasal plus stop after another consonant became simple nasal which shows nd > n; in the second element of compounds. That would give us ndaknēr. Would that explain it?

Ellanto #3363

That is well observed! I don't often give much thought to those primtive rules, since their relevance is often sporadic.

In this case I don't think it provides the explanation we need though.

You see, if we assume ✶ndak·ndēr > ✶ndak·nēr primitively, and evolve it from there, we will then expect to observe ✶ndak·nēr > ndag·nēr through rule OS11 (voicing of stops before nasals). As a consequence, we then see the following development:

  • ✶ndak·nēr > [OS11] ndag·nēr > dag·nēr > [S9] daɣ·nēr > dainēr > dainīr > daenīr > daenir

Which is obviously incorrect. In order to get to dagnir, the voicing of [k] to [g] needs to happen after the postvocalic spirantisation of [g] to [ɣ], i.e. through rule S26 (postvocalic voicing of stops).

Let's consider these rules:

Looking at rule OS11 - "voiceless stops were voiced before nasals": the relevant examples of this rule are the following:

  • ✶okma > ogma > oɣma > oima > oim > oem > oev > oew.

  • ✶rakmē > ragmē > ragme > raɣme > raime > raim > raem > raev > raew (attested as N. rhaew).

  • ✶ndakno > ndagno > dagno > daɣno > daino > dain > daen (note that the development listed on the Eldamo page is different, due to Sindarin-Noldorin differences, see below).

Etc.

[It is important to note that many of the examples listed on the page for rule OS11 are from Noldorin (=draft Sindarin), where further developments differ; namely, rule OS36 (equivalent to rule 47 of Old Noldorin, "voiced stops became nasals before nasals"). In Noldorin this turned all voiced stops into nasals when followed by a nasal; however, in Sindarin, this rule seems to only apply to homorganic groups, i.e. [bm] > [mm], [dn] > [nn], [gŋ] > [ŋŋ], but not other combinations.]

Now this brings us to the question, how can dagnir arise to begin with? On the face of it, it seems that even ✶ndak·ndēr would then undergo OS11 and become ndag·ndēr > ndaɣ·ndēr...

Now I don't think we actually have any other clear examples for this, at least none that I can find, but I would posit that the difference here is indeed between the nasal [n] and the prenasalised 'nd', which is technically [ⁿd]. Prenasalised stops often act similar to either nasals or stops, depending on language etc. So in this case I would assume that [ⁿd] does not provide the appropriate environment for OS11 to occur. Thus it goes like this:

✶ⁿdak·ⁿdēr > dak·ⁿdēr > dak·ⁿdīr > [S26] dag·ⁿdīr > dag·ⁿdir; now the final stage could either normally become dagdir, or, through dissimilation, dagnir, as it does.

I must again thank you for asking a very good question!

Rínor #3365

You are a wealth of knowledge. Again thank you for entertaining my questions as I fumble around looking at the rules and how the words came to be.