Help with English->Sindarin poem

Alden #1943

Hi all, can anyone double-check my translation of this (part of a) poem?

To the elements it came from
Everything will return.
Our bodies to earth,
Our blood to water,
Heat to fire,
Breath to air.

I'm missing a few words and paraphrasing.. but trying to stay as close to the original as I can:

Na i ?elements (maybe something like "realms".. artyr?) ha otoll ("come from" o+tol, does it make sense?)
illad damenatha (or dammenatha, or dadwenatha.. not sure).
Mín (or gwîn or vin..) rhaw (or rhond.. but don't know how to pluralise it) na cae,
Mín agar na nen,
ûr (maybe?) na naur,
Hwest na gwilith.
Gilruin #1951

I don't have the time for a full discussion of your translation right now, but i can share what I'd translate. If you need grammar resources (looking at forms like toll in your translation, your own resources seem to be out of date in some places), I'd suggest starting here and here.

na in erthyr erf od in oduler

towards the realms (← pl. of athor) [of] matter [← neologism from Quenya erma] from which they came

ill dandolathar

all back-come-will-plural (dandol- “back-come” is attested for return as well)

ith roe bín na ceven

the bodies (← aw/au changes to oe in plural, in rh- mutates to ith r-) of-ours (← mín with soft mutation) towards earth (not mutating this particular word seems to be a special case, regular would be na geven)

i hereg bín na nen

the blood (← soft mutation of sereg, which seems to be the more usual term) of-ours (← mín with soft mutation) towards water

brass na naur

(white) heat to fire (ûr would have been “fire to fier” but I don't know whats the intended sense of this line. Is it still metaphorically about people?)

thûl na ‘wilith

breath (not using hwest because it can also mean “breeze” and thûl would add some connection to “spirit” as well) to air (← soft mutation of gwilith)

Alden #1952

Hey, thanks a lot! I'm always a bit confused by the various sources.. I've saved those two links for the future :)

I like your suggestions (and yes, it is about people dying; "brass" was my initial choice but "white fire" seemed weird to represent body heat.. but in the end, it doesn't matter too much). I will study them and try to update my mental model of Sindarin.. hard language, but beautiful.

Gilruin #1953

A possibility that would be less close to the original poem, but better fits the intention would be fae(r) na naur “spirit to fire”. Eldarin seems to allow for the metaphor of fire describing or being connected to the soul as we can see in the name Fëanáro “Spirit of Fire”.

Also vín >> bín (← soft mutation of pín), because it's “we all” and not “we but not you”.

Alden #1954

Neat - I like it and if fits very well! I also like fae's meaning of "radiance" (which in the RPG I'm doing this for, it's definitely a part of an elf) as going back to "fire".

Do you think here faer is totally equivalent to fae, or is there a reason to use one or the other?

Gilruin #1955

faer is a bit more general than fae, the latter is the soul of an Elf or Man specifically, whereas faer would also be usable in something like “the Holy Spirit”.

Fae doesn't mean “radiance” however or at least Tolkien never glossed it that way, I think. Faer could possibly be extended to mean “radiance” in archaic speech after its Quneya equivalent faire “spirit (disembodied), phantom; †radiance”, but with galad, aglar and glawar at our disposal I don't see why we need to do that.