General Sindarin translations feedback

So as it turns out, my understanding of Sindarin was (and still is) extremely limited (most clearly evident by the previous thread which I had started). Nevertheless I (for some reason) was not discouraged, instead seeking to do and learn from said doing even more.

So I switched from the blasphemous "sindarinlessons.weebly.com" to the great elvish archive of eldamo.org.

Once I had had a quick (propably too short) look at the rules of grammar (which I must say were at times not very clear), I got to work translating some texts I had made a while back.

Now said translations are done, and I have come here seeking to hone my craft by submitting my translations for review.

Now that I have talked for so long that most will have skim-read this "explanation" (for the lack of a better word), I present thee, my (most likely horrendously wrong) Sindarin translations:

A quick note before the translations: I have been using the archaic -a genitive suffix in these translations and some self-made compounds where there had not been a word for the specific thing I wanted.

• Chronicle of the dynasty of Tar-Eldarion -> Nossnarn Arnothlira Tar-Eldariona

(nossnarn trying to be family+tale for chronicle (of a specific family), arnothlira -> noble+family)

• The Kings of the kingdom of Salchdor -> In Erain en Arnada na Salchnor

(Salchdor using salch as "grass" (I know that glae would have been the more proper word, but decided to use salch as a word for grass, explaining it away by regional differences or something), and the name Salchdor being the Sindarin translation of the Qunyea name Salquënórë)

• Major moments of their reigning years -> Erluig Berdheínwena

(This one I remember being messy and thus most likely completely wrong. I had attached these notes to this translation: "pl. ar + luig, based on quenya word arcantiër, Reign-years + -wen (suffix their)")

• Short (stunted) history of the kingdom of salchdor -> Gobennas Naug na arnad salchdora

(I couldn't find a sindarin word for "short" or "compressed", so I ended up using naug (which I presume is really wrong))

• also includes the lawful heir apparents of Salchdor after the fall, which the crown prince Dúnrohir and his heirs recorded -> Eithro gâr ríhil thein salchdora ab i dhant, i ríernil Dúnrohir ar híl tína teithant

("recorded" is my guess as to what the finnish "merkitsivät" would translate to in this context. ríhil -> crown+heir (literal translation from finnish "kruununperijä"), ríernil -> crown+prince (again, a literal translation from finnish, this time from the word "kruununprinssi"))

That's all. In addition to learning all that is wrong with the translations themselves I would also like to know when the heck is soft mutation supposed to take place? The eldamo article for it just says "This entry primarily discusses the mutational process itself. The conditions under which mutations occur is addressed in other entries." without even a hint as to what these "other entries" are or where they can be found.

Also, is there any way for me to submit tengwar text to a thread such as this? Because I have written these in the Beleriand mode and would like some feedback on that too.

My eternal gratitude for whomever suffers through this and gives an answer (of any kind!)!

Welcome back Forestel!

For names you cannot use the archaic -a suffix it’s either iel, el, eth for females -on, ion for male. There are others suffixes but you can't use the archaic -a. Again, I can’t recommend Sindarin/Quenya hybrids outside the ones attested from Tolkien.

Ok, here it goes.

• Chronicle of the dynasty of Tar-Eldarion -> Pennas eñ-gwanos Ar-Edhelion (Tar-Eldarion) ← This is Quenya. (History of the lineage of Ar-Edhelion.)

• The Kings of the kingdom of Salchdor -> in-Erain en-arnad Dor Salch (The Kings of the kingdom of Dor Salch)

  • -lchd- and it would actually be -lchnd-, for which there are no known attested clusters or examples that I can find. The best bet is to use Dor Salch. You could also consider Glaennor as an option. Also, just for the record, ‘salch’ means ‘green cut grass, ensilage.’.

• Major moments of their reigning years -> Luig velig in-idhrinn vardhol dín. (Great moments of their reigning years.)

• Short (stunted) history of the kingdom of salchdor -> Pennas thent en-arnad Dol Salch. (Short history of the kingdom of Dol Salch.)

• also includes the lawful heir apparents of Salchdor after the fall, which the crown prince Dúnrohir and his heirs wrote down -> Eithro camia i-chîl thain Dol Salch ab i-dhant, haudhiel mo Gund (Dudhrohir) ah i-chîl dín. (Also it includes the lawful heirs of Dol Salch after the fall, recorded by Prince (Dudhrohir) and his heirs.)

Camia a cognate of the ᴺQ. !camya-, v. “to contain, hold”

If you are going for “West Knight” Dudhrohir because of Rule 37 [nr] becomes [ðr]. So mutation happens quite often in Sindarin either with nouns following prepositions, definite articles, direct objects, adjectives modifying nouns etc.

For Tengwar check out the reddit group here www.reddit.com :)

Check out my site sindarinchrashcourse.neocities.org this might help you out. I think I got most of the kinks out of it, and I would like to know your thoughts as well. :)

Let me know if you have any questions.

Thank you ever so much for assisting me once more!

A few things though:

Why is it not correct to use the old -a genitive (which was (maybe) used in the dialect of Sindarin spoken in Doriath) for names? Also, the suffixes you presented to replace it with are just general name suffixes and not genitive suffixes (because such a suffix doesn't exist in modern Sindarin) right?

Is there a way to write tengwar on a thread like this? Whenever I try to do so (using the Tengwar Parmaitë font) it doesn't copy with the font, so it ends up looking like this: 6hk6]76 ]76h3j7] 1]7 lj2]7h6]

I would love to check out your site to learn more but the link doesn't work!

So, the old -a means "of" as far as I can tell and fell out of use somewhere around Old Sindarin I think (this is getting out of realm of knowledge) the only two attested examples are Bar Bëora “House of Bëor” and Nauglamír “Necklace of the Dwarves”. And it is no longer used in Modern Sindarin.

• A genitive relationship (“of”) in Sindarin can be marked in several ways. The most straightforward is to have the related noun follow the noun it modifies, so that aran Moria means “king [of] Moria”, with “of” not explicit in the Sindarin phrase. This would be analogous to saying “Moria king” in English, except the order of the Sindarin words is reversed.

See the notes from Eldamo.

• Sindarin for the House (Clan) of Bëor (WJ/230). It is a combination of S. bâr “house, home” and the Edain name Bëor with the old genitive suffix -a “of”. Given the combination of elements, it may be from a different language than Sindarin, perhaps Nandorin or Bëorian.

• Conceptual Development: In the earliest Lost Tales, this name was G. Nauglafring (LT2/221), a form that was retained in the early Silmarillion drafts (SM/33, SM/134), but was replaced with Ilk. Nauglamír later in the 1930s (SM/313, LR/141). In The Etymologies, this name was designated Doriathrin [Ilkorin], with its initial element being the genitive of Dor. naugol “dwarf” (Ety/NAUK, MIR). This form was not updated in the Silmarillion revisions from the 1950s-60s, but no longer fit the phonology of later Sindarin (the expected form would be Nauglavir). Either it was dialectical or (more likely) Tolkien never got around to revising it.

So for Tengwar the fonts are not mapped correctly form my understanding to the corresponding keys. I have never ventured into Tengwar so I don't really know the whole story. And I don't really want to learn it either lol. There is a lot about it on the VL Discord or on the reddit site I believe. But that is past my knowledge.

I think it is just missing the https:// in front for some reason. LOL anyways no worries with that.

What about the name dagnir glaurunga, which clearly has the -a genitive?

Also, considering that (at least to my understanding) the parts of the silmarillion where dagnir glaurunga and nauglamír can be found were the least worked on in the final silmarillion revisions, could it be that it was Tolkien's intent to completely abandon the use of the -a genitive in the sindarin dialect spoken in Doriath as is suggested in the chapter Túrin Turambar? Also compare with "Lúthien's song in The Lays of Beleriand p. 354, which seems to be pure Sindarin" (quoted from Ardalambion: folk.uib.no).

Just a random passing thought I just had: Could it be that the Doriathrin word egla (isolated from eglador) is actually supposed to be egol/egel or something like that, considering that naugol turned to naugla when added the -a genitive in the name nauglamír? This would give the name the elements egel/egol + -a + dôr, literally elf's land.

Nevermind the whole previous paragraph which I spent an evening writing, the Parf Edhellen gloss for egla already mentions this possibility. Thought I realised something new and clever but clearly not.

I still cannot get the link to work, even with the added https:// in front. It just says "Page Not Found. The requested web page was not found on this site."

I don't see the genitive -a used int Lúthien's Song.

Ir Ithil ammen Eruchín menel-vîr síla díriel si loth a galadh lasto dîn! A Hîr Annûn gilthoniel, le linnon im Tinúviel!

As for dagnir glaurunga I didn't even see that entry eldamo.org it only has his name Glaurung. I don't believe we can use this example either. But again we are venturing into stuff I am on versed in.

Found out why lol sindarincrashcourse.neocities.org it was spelled wrong before. LOL

I don't see the genitive -a used in Lúthien's Song.

Exactly my point! If the song doesn't use it and Lúthien is from doriath and lived at a time before the name Dagnir Glaurunga was written on Túrin's grave, then wouldn't that mean that Tolkien had abandonded the idea of the old -a genitive being used in the Doriath-dialect of Sindarin?

Also, very odd that Eldamo doesn't have the name dagnir glaurunga by itself and only as a part of Túrin turambar dagnir glaurunga.

Thankfully the link works now. I'll propably spend the rest of the week marveling at your site!