Translation of unit names

Glingron #1199

Hello everybody,

I am currently trying to translate the names of units in a computer game to Sindarin. However, my knowledge is very limited and I am still having difficulties with the grammar, especially with word composition and mutation. Furthermore it is not clear for me whether in compound words like Borderguard Archers only one of the words or both take the plural form.

If someone has time to look at it, I would be very grateful.

(abload.de)

Many thanks

Elaran #1202

There are a lot of issues here, it will be quite the wall of text...

Using -tir as "guard(ian)" is debatable, though good enough. But "glanir" is definitely not how it would be compounded with glan. A late compound would be glandir (which can also be viewed as "border-man"), but since you are not talking about the guards and rather the swordsmen (etc.) of the guards, you should rather use glandirith (using tirith, the act of watching, guarding).

Genitive formations are implied with word order (cf. Aran Moria = "King of Moria"), not with the preposition o which actually means "from" and does not make sense if the soldiers are still in Lórien. There is a word for "of the" (not just "of" though), but its usage depends on the following word, rather needlessly complex for what you need, since "the" is not always required. So, just use Magor Glandirith Lórien "Swordsman of (the) Border-watch of Lórien" = "Lórien Border-watch Swordsman". And you only need to pluralise magor in that formation.

Next issue is "îthron". Sindarin does not allow overlong vowels (i.e. the ones with circumflexes like "î") in polysyllabic words (with very specific exceptions). Only long vowels are allowed ("í"), and not even them in the last syllable (except old names) or if they precede a consonant cluster like "thr" which is the case here. But no, the plural of eithron is not "ithryn", because "ei" does not change when pluralised. So its plural should be eithryn, though I would personally use eithor & eithyr.

I was asked about the singular form of Galadhrim not long ago, and I offered (m.) galadhron & (f.) galadhril. I guess, the word got around. However, it is not what you should use there. It would be the same as in English, only reverted. Thus Maethor Galadhrim "Warrior of (the) Treefolk". You can use galadh[ron/ril] only by itself (without "warrior" etc.) if you want to address a single Elf of the Galadhrim.

And now "tir" is not even a suffix. This is even more unsafe than the using the suffixed form as "guard(ian)". I would suggest tirron & tirryn. And again, drop the o "from".

A female minstrel would be pethril.

I would replace Taur e-Ndaedelos with Taur-nu-Fuin. Because Tolkien wrote the latter later (so it is more of "final decision" than the other), and because the word [n]daedelos is slightly problematic, long story. Also the forest was not always called "Mirkwood". Before the influence of Dol Guldur, it was Eryn Galen "Greendwood", and after the War of the Ring, it was Eryn Lasgalen "Greenwood the Great (lit. Forest of Green-leaves)".

A "palace" would be orbar(dh) like the Quenya word oromar(d-) "lofty hall, high-mansion, high (lofty) dwelling". The initial element shares its root with orod "mountain, hill", similar to the etymology of English "palace" which comes from Ceaser's house on "the Palatine Hill".

Well Avari is a Quenya word, and one should not mix languages. It is Avar & Evair in Sindarin. But you can be sure that no warrior in Mirkwood would be called an Avar, so maybe you should drop this altogether.

You can use glandir by itself here. Its plural is not "glendir" though. What causes Sindarin words to change form when plural is an ancient final "i" which disappears after affecting the words. But here there is already an "i", so the preceding "a" should have become "e" already. Meaning that it would be "glendir" both in singular and plural form. But, there is also a reformation rule with which recognisable elements in compounds are restored, hence glandir, and another "i" would not really change that. So "sg. glandir & pl. glandir", but the difference can be marked with the help of tirron in the form glandirron & glandirryn

The "elk riding" thing is a (rather unrealistic) invention of the Hobbit films, so it is not really a thing unless you want to go for it. The word is phonetically off however with that "...v+b...". And by that "v" I mean: Tolkien used final "-f" in the Latin orthography as "v" instead, so it is actually "celev" and should be written like that when that V is not the final letter. More importantly, "-ben" is not really what you need there. I assume, you were copying rochben "(horse)rider" (because I also saw "wind rider" in your list as "gwaeben" which... you will see...), but this "-ben" does not mean "rider", it is simply the word pen "person" in a compound. So the sense "rider" comes from the fact that "horse+person" can only mean "rider". Meanwhile a "deer+person" would arguably mean "hunter" instead (and "gwaeben" would mean... "?weatherman", basically nonsense). Anyway, celef is a neologism with an existing attested alternative aras, so it would be better to use that. You can use it alongside northor & nerthyr "rider(s)" as northor aras "rider (of) deer = deer rider".

That "ecthelorn" is a neologism whose justification for that non-final "c" (not allowed) does not really work in Sindarin. This would be better as eithorn. While we are at it, "soros" is an early draft word that does not really mean anything in Sindarin, I would replace it with feren. And again, the formation should be "Onod Feren" etc. Though I should say, Ents were not really trees...

The form "ionath" is attested so it is fine, but "ionnath" is also attested, and it is arguably more plausible so you may want to change it.

I guess "hatholir" is like "glanir" where the initial sound of the second element disappeared for no reason, so "hathol+chir", which has other phonetic issues. I would rather offer maechir or megilchir with identical plurals.

Not sure how to approach "lancer", I suppose "spear-rider" will need to suffice. So Eithrochben with plural "-bin".

Loremaster would rather be angollon & engellyn (cf. Q. ingolmo "loremaster", Q. ingolë = S. angol & Q. -mo = S. -(r)on).

Again, not sure how to approach "catapult", maybe hadiod from had- "throw" and gaud "device". The phonetic development makes it rather obscure, but there is not much of a choice. The words like sling with "rope" in it have uncertainties around them, so I would not bother.

I would use Borvaethor as "veteran", since the root of the initial element has other derivatives like "old, endured", thus an etymological match for the English word. There are multiple ways to translate the "Last Alliance", I would translate it as Gwennas Dell.

Not sure what to do with "Glorfindel's Wind Rider", I don't get what it is. I can only say that Sindarin word means "wind-person" instead.

As usual, revert the Dúnedain formations, it should come after the troop word. As for "ranger", I would not use that "stealthy" word, it is a very stretched neologism... Now, it can be argued that the use of "ranger" in the works of Tolkien has two different meanings. When speaking of the "Rangers of the North", it refers to the wandering folk of the Dúnedain as a whole (including women and children). And they were called "rangers" (i.e. "wanderers") by the Men of Bree, so it is doubtful that they would refer to themselves with the same word instead of saying "I am a Dúnadan". Meanwhile the "Rangers of the South" were Gondorian special forces from Ithilien, and here the word more or less meant "soldier", which does not quite apply to the Dúnedain in the north. In other words, you may want to change this.

And finally, poll is the animal "ram", so the final entry is basically "the ram-animal of the Dúnedain", it does not hint at anything else. And it would arguably be an Anglicism to use the word for "ram (animal)" (even with "battering" alongside it) for the siege weapon. So I will instead suggest dringod "beating/hammering-device".

That took a while... But looks like we are done.

Glingron #1203

Hello Elaran,

Many thanks for taking the time to look at my request. Your explanations were really detailed and helped me get a better understanding. I've reworked everything according to your remarks and only have a few questions /remarks left.

1) For the Palace Guard, would it be more elegant to go for Tirron Orbar Taur-nu-Fuin or for a compound word like with Glandirith?

2) Glorfindel's Wind Riders are an elite unit of riders under the command of Glorfindel that are named for being as fast as the wind.

3) Do you know anything that would come close to "Rivendell Banner Carrier"? I would have gone for the genitive formation "Carrier of Banners of Rivendell", but I couldn't find anything that was close to banner or flag in Sindarin.

4) The word order implying gentivive formations is not restricted to "local" specifications, right? So, if I want to specify that the loremaster is particularly well versed in the study of the winds, I could just go for Angollon Gwae?

Finally here is the list with the changes:

  • Lórien Borderguard Swordsman - Magor Glandirith Lórien; Megyr Glandirith Lórien
  • Lórien Borderguard Archer - Pengron Glandirith Lórien; Pengryn Glandirith Lórien
  • Lórien Borderguard Pikeman - Eithor Glandirith Lórien; Eithyr Glandirith Lórien
  • Galadhrim Warriors - Maethor Galadhrim Lórien; Maethyr Galadhrim Lórien
  • Guards of Caras Galadhon - Tirron Caras Galadhon; Tirryn Caras Galadhon
  • Minstrel of Lothlórien - Pethril Lórien; Pethril Lórien
  • Mirkwood Swordsman - Magor Taur-nu-Fuin; Megyr Taur-nu-Fuin
  • Mirkwood Archer - Pengron Taur-nu-Fuin; Pengryn Taur-nu-Fuin
  • Mirkwood Pikeman - Eithor Taur-nu-Fuin; Eithyr Taur-nu-Fuin
  • Mirkwood Palace Guard - Orbarthirron Taur-nu-Fuin; Orbarthirryn Taur-nu-Fuin
  • Mirkwood Borderguard Swordsman - Magor Glandirith Taur-nu-Fuin; Megyr Glandirith Taur-nu-Fuin
  • Mirkwood Borderguard Archer - Pengron Glandirith Taur-nu-Fuin; Pengryn Glandirith Taur-nu-Fuin
  • Mirkwood Elkrider - Northor Aras Taur-nu-Fuin; Nerthyr Aras Taur-nu-Fuin
  • Spruce Ent - Onod Eithorn; Enyd Eithorn
  • Oak Ent - Onod Doron; Enyd Doron
  • Birch Ent - Onod Hwinn; Enyd Hwinn
  • Ash Ent - Onod Feren; Enyd Feren
  • Beorning - Beornion; Beornionnath
  • Rivendell Swordsman - Magor Imladris; Megyr Imladris
  • Rivendell Archer - Pengron Imladris; Pengryn Imladris
  • Rivendell Spearman - Eithor Imladris; Eithyr Imladris
  • Rivendell Blade Master - Maechir Imladris; Maechir Imladris
  • Rivendell Lancer - Eithrochben Imladris; Eithrochbyn Imladris
  • Rivendell Loremaster - Angollon Imladris; Engellyn Imladris
  • Rivendell Catapult - Hadiod Imladris ; Hadyd Imladris
  • Veteran of the Last Alliance - Borvaethor Gwennas Dell; Borvaethyr Gwennas Dell
  • Glorfindel's Wind Rider - Rochben Glorfindel; Rochbin Glorfindel
  • Lindon Guardians - Tirron Lindon; Tirryn Lindon
  • Dúnedain Swordsman - Magor Dúnedain; Megyr Dúnedain
  • Dúnedain Spearman - Eithor Dúnedain; Eithyr Dúnedain
  • Dúnedain Archer - Pengron Dúnedain; Pengryn Dúnedain
  • Dúnedain Battering Ram - Dringod Dúnedain; Dringyd Dúnedain

Many thanks

Elaran #1204
  1. What you have in the new list is good enough.

  2. Looks like you went for "Riders of Glorfindel" which sounds special enough to me.

  3. This one is not that straightforward but I can suggest tolchollon & telchellyn for "banner-carrier".

  4. Yes, the same with any genitive formation.

Further corrections:

  • Plural of rochben is indeed rochbin, but you got the other one wrong; it reads "eithrochbYn".
  • I should have warned you about the plurals of hadiod and dringod. An "o" that comes from "au" does not become "y" in the final position when pluralised, it becomes "oe". So they should be hadioed & dringoed. (And it does not change at all when not final: raud+on = Rodon & Rodyn.)

Unless I'm missing something, everything else seems fine.

Glingron #1253

Hi Elaran,

Thanks for your remarks and your help with this. I assume you went for an adapted version of tulwe (Q) + col (carry;bear) + agental suffix for Banner Carrier?

With your remarks in mind, I now started to translate the buildings as well. I wasn't able to translate everything word by word due to missing word, but I tried my best to find something similar.

For example I went for:

  • Maethor+bar = Warrior House for Barracks, Roch+bar = Horse House for Stable and Parf+bar = Book House for Library.
  • Annon+dolen = Hidden Gate for Postern Gate
  • Hûd = Assembly for Moot
  • Ara+rond = for Vault of Kings
  • Miru+rond = Wine Vault for Wine Cellar
  • Teithor / Teithyr = write+agental suffix = Writer = Author; Nestor / Nestyr = heal+agental suffix = Healer

These considerations have led to the following list, with a few word missing like Forge, Outpost, Farm, Siege Work, Storage, Tent and Mystical Fountain:

  • Lórien Borderguard Quarter - Talan Glandirith Lórien; Telain Glandirith Lórien
  • Lórien Galadhrim Quarter - Talan Galadhrim Lórien; Telain Galadhrim lórien
  • Lórien Sanctuary - Iaun Lórien; Ioen Lórien
  • Lórien Forge - ;
  • Lórien Citadel - Ost Lórien; Yst Lórien
  • Lórien Outpost - ;
  • Lórien Lantern - Calar Lórien; Celair Lórein
  • Lórien Guard Platform - Talan Tirith Lórien; Telain Tirith Lórien
  • Lórien Statue - Sarnel Lórien; Sernil Lórien
  • Lórien Platform - Talan Lórien; Telain Lórien
  • Lórien Bridge - Iant Lórien; Iaint Lórien
  • Lórien Stairway - Pendrad Lórien; Pendraid Lórien
  • Beorning Homestead - Bâr Beornionnath; Bair Beornionnath
  • Mallorn Tree - Mallorn; Mellyrn
  • Ent Moot - Hûd Enyd; Huid Enyd
  • Mirkwood Citadel - Ost Taur-nu-Fuin; Yst Taur-nu-Fuin
  • Mirkwood Troop Chamber - Sam Maethyr Taur-nu-Fuin; Saim Maethyr Taur-nu-Fuin
  • Mirkwood Vault of the King - Ararond Taur-nu-Fuin; Ererynd Taur-nu-Fuin
  • Mirkwood Wine Cellar - Mirurond Taur-nu-Fuin; Miryrynd Taur-nu-Fuin
  • Rivendell Stable - Rochbar Imladris; Rochbair Imladris
  • Rivendell Farm - ;
  • Rivendell Siege Work - ;
  • Rivendell Barracks - Maethorvar Imladris; Maethorvair Imladris
  • Forge of Eregion - ;
  • Rivendell Library - Parfbar Imladris; Perfbair Imladris
  • Rivendell Citadel - Ost Imladris; Yst Imladris
  • Rivendell Stair - Pendrad Imladris; Pendraid Imladris
  • Rivendell Gate - Annon Imladris; Ennyn Imladris
  • Rivendell Wall - Ram Imladris; Raim Imladris
  • Rivendell Mystical Fountain - ;
  • Rivendell Postern Gate - Annondolen Imladris; Ennendelin Imladris
  • Rivendell Sentry Tower - Barad Tirith Imladris; Beraid Tirith Imladris
  • Rivendell Flood Gate - ;
  • Rivendell Author's Hall - Tham Teithyr Rivendell; Thaim Teithyr Rivendell
  • Rivendell Resting Place - Sad Îdh Rivendell; Said Îdh Rivendell
  • Resting Camp of the Elves - Echad Îdh Edhil; Echaid Îdh Edhil
  • Lindon Watchtower - Barad Tirith Lindon; Beraid Tirith Lindon
  • Dúnedain Outpost - ;
  • Dúnedain Troop Tent - [Tent] Maethyr Dúnedain; [Tents] Maethyr Dúnedain
  • Dúnedain Healer Tent - [Tent] Nestyr Dúnedain; [Tents] Nestyr Dúnedain
  • Dúnedain Storage Tent - ;
  • Dúnedain Watchtower - Barad Tirith Dúnedain; Beraid Tirith Dúnedain
  • Hobbit Farm - ;

I would really appreciate your further assistance with these translations.

Many thanks for your help.

Elaran #1259

An even longer list! I get that some of these are basically extensions of "unit names", but why "lantern" and such? Anyway, this time I will spare you (and myself) the details, after the initial bits.

I already addressed (regarding celefben/celevben) that final "F" in the Latin orthography of Sindarin means "V" (and should be written as "V" when not final) and that this cannot be followed by "B", but in your "parfbar" the same problem is seen again. Also you seem to have skipped lenition for the following "B", even though you have "maethorvar". And yet both are mistaken. The word [m]bar is prenasalised word which undergoes a different set of rules, so that would be "maethorbar" instead. In short, I suggest parbar "book-home", and herthad "troop-place". I would also use rochad for "stable (lit. horse-place)", more stable than the other compound.

For the remaining ones from the first paragraph:

annondolen > dolfen
ararond > arron(d)
mirurond > liphron(d)
nestor > nathor

Now the list:

talan "quarter" > sam "chamber" (use talan as "platform" only)
iaun > aenas (if "temple") / caw (if "shelter")

  • tevil "forge"
  • ethast (pl. ethest) "outpost"

sarnel > gondan
pendrad > pendrath (or cellir)

  • rîdh "farm"

Not sure what "siege work" is supposed to be.

  • nenand "water-gate"

sad/echad îdh > sennas

  • tump "tent"

That should be all.

Glingron #1260

Hi Elaran,

First of all I would like to thank you for taking the time to review this long list, again! I really appreciate it. You're right that I've done the same mistake again. Sorry for that, just slipped through. I can also understand that the list might seem strange to an outsider, but in fact they all make sense in terms of the game in which they appear.

I think I can reproduce all the words you used except tevil for forge and liphron for wine cellar. I'm going to assume that the rest of the list I made was okay? For the three missing words, I came up with the following:

  • Dúnedain Storage Tent - Tump Hauda Dúnedain; Tymp Hauda Dúnedain
  • Rivendell Mystical Fountain - Eithel Nestad Imladris; Eithil Nestad Imladris (Basically a small fountain whose water has a healing effect)
  • Rivendell Siege Workshop - Hadiodad Imladris; Hadiodaid Imladris (Basically the place where the catapults are built)

Just for the sake of completeness here again the complete list:

  • Lórien Borderguard Quarter - Sam Glandirith Lórien; Saim Glandirith Lórien
  • Lórien Galadhrim Quarter - Sam Galadhrim Lórien; Saim Galadhrim lórien
  • Lórien Sanctuary - Aenas Lórien; Aenais Lórien
  • Lórien Forge - Tevil Lórien; Tevil Lórien
  • Lórien Citadel - Ost Lórien; Yst Lórien
  • Lórien Outpost - Ethast Lórien; Ethest Lórien
  • Lórien Lantern - Calar Lórien; Celair Lórein
  • Lórien Guard Platform - Talan Tirith Lórien; Telain Tirith Lórien
  • Lórien Statue - Gondan Lórien; Gendyn Lórien
  • Lórien Platform - Talan Lórien; Telain Lórien
  • Lórien Bridge - Iant Lórien; Iaint Lórien
  • Lórien Stairway - Pendrath Lórien; Pendraith Lórien
  • Beorning House - Bâr Beornionnath; Bair Beornionnath
  • Mallorn Tree - Mallorn; Mellyrn
  • Ent Moot - Hûd Enyd; Huid Enyd
  • Mirkwood Citadel - Ost Taur-nu-Fuin; Yst Taur-nu-Fuin
  • Mirkwood Troop Chamber - Sam Maethyr Taur-nu-Fuin; Saim Maethyr Taur-nu-Fuin
  • Mirkwood Vault of the King - Arron Taur-nu-Fuin; Erryn Taur-nu-Fuin
  • Mirkwood Wine Cellar - Liphron Taur-nu-Fuin; Liphryn Taur-nu-Fuin
  • Rivendell Stable - Rochad Imladris; Rochaid Imladris
  • Rivendell Farm - Rîdh Imladris; Rîdh Imladris
  • Rivendell Siege Workshop - Hadiodad Imladris; Hadiodaid Imladris
  • Rivendell Barracks - Herthad Imladris; Herthaid Imladris
  • Forge of Eregion - Tevil Eregion; Tevil Eregion
  • Rivendell Library - Parbar Imladris; Perbair Imladris
  • Rivendell Citadel - Ost Imladris; Yst Imladris
  • Rivendell Stair - Pendrath Imladris; Pendraith Imladris
  • Rivendell Gate - Annon Imladris; Ennyn Imladris
  • Rivendell Wall - Ram Imladris; Raim Imladris
  • Rivendell Mystical Fountain - Eithel Nestad Imladris; Eithil Nestad Imladris
  • Rivendell Postern Gate - Dolfen Imladris; Delfin Imladris
  • Rivendell Sentry Tower - Barad Tirith Imladris; Beraid Tirith Imladris
  • Rivendell Flood Gate - Nenand Imladris; Nenaind Imladris
  • Rivendell Author's Hall - Tham Teithyr Rivendell; Thaim Teithyr Rivendell
  • Rivendell Resting Place - Sennas Rivendell; Sennais Rivendell
  • Resting Camp of the Elves - Sennas Edhil; Sennais Edhil
  • Lindon Watchtower - Barad Tirith Lindon; Beraid Tirith Lindon
  • Dúnedain Outpost - Ethast Dúnedain; Ethest Dúnedain
  • Dúnedain Troop Tent - Tump Maethyr Dúnedain; Tymp Maethyr Dúnedain
  • Dúnedain Healer Tent - Tump Nethyr Dúnedain; Tymp Nethyr Dúnedain
  • Dúnedain Storage Tent - Tump Hauda Dúnedain; Tymp Hauda Dúnedain
  • Dúnedain Watchtower - Barad Tirith Dúnedain; Beraid Tirith Dúnedain
  • Hobbit Farm - Rîdh Periannath; Rîdh Periannath

Many thanks and I promise, that was the last long list of words ;)

Best regards

Elaran #1263

Rule of thumb: Whenever you see a word that ends with a vowel, think twice about whether it is Sindarin, as almost all Sindarin words end with a consonant instead. That hauda is a Telerin word, and its S. cognate is haudh.

As my replacing your "nestor" with nathor hints, "nestad" should be nathad. The rest of the entry looks fine.

"Workshop" would have been far clearer. Anyway, the "place" word that I used for some of those compounds is actually sad (lenited had), which can assimilate to preceding voiceless fricatives, so it only looks like "-ad" in certain situations. Now... I would use dagor for "siege" and carathad for "workshop (lit. construction-place)". So Carathad Dagor Imladris.

I should talk about the pluralisation dilemma... The historical phonetic development rules of Sindarin dictate that "I-epenthesis" (or I-intrusion) cannot take place when a consonant cluster is in the way. This is the reason behind my giving the plural of ethast in the form ethest (rather than "ethaist") due to the final ST cluster which prevents ancient I from entering the preceding syllable (like: arani > ereni > erein > erain). And there are other such words in your list, like iant with its NT that makes the plural ient (rather than iaint). But... There are some counter examples. For example Tolkien gave two plural forms for sarn as sern and sairn. So ignore my "ethest" suggestion and go with "ethaist", because going the "right way" calls for many other changes like "saim > sem" (comes from samm<samb<sambe), "sennais > sennes" (from sennasse), and so on.

Similarly I would suggest keeping the final D of rond (despite what the rules say), because it can be confused with the agental suffix -ron. That is what Tolkien seems to have done as well. So arrond, liphrond.

And finally, you wrote "gondyn" for the plural of gondan. That should be "gendain". Now we are done, I think.

Glingron #1264

Hello Elaran,

thanks a lot for your help. Everything is clear now.

Best regards

Aldaleon #1268

This is such a great thread! I am almost of the mind to register these words in the dictionary. Do you have a final compiled list of names?