"of the Earth and the Moon"

Jessila Hellsgroove #44

Hello, I'm thinking about writing a story where one of my characters would have an Elvish last name. I'd like her name to mean "of the Earth and the Moon" as if the Earth and Moon were her spiritual Mothers, sort of.

So I've been searching through your database and saw that there were various ways to say "Earth", "Moon", and even "and" It seemed to me that to say "of the", the preferred form would be to use the genitive case, but here again I saw that there were different genitive suffixes.

So I'm left with a whole bunch of options, and though I do have my preferences where pronunciation is concerned, I need to know if they're all equally valid in terms of syntax and meaning.

Here are the options I came up with:

Ambaro ar Ráno Ambaro arë Ráno Ambaro yo Ráno Ambaro Ránoyë

Ambara ar Ráno Ambara arë Ráno Ambara yo Ráno Ambara Ránoyë

Ambaren ar Ráno Ambaren arë Ráno Ambaren yo Ráno Ambaren Ránoyë

Cemno ar Isilo Cemno arë Isilo Cemno yo Isilo Cemno Isiloyë

Cemna ar Isilo Cemna arë Isilo Cemna yo Isilo Cemna Isiloyë

Cemna ar Isila Cemna arë Isila Cemna yo Isila Cemna Isilayë

Any help you can provide will be greatly appreciated :))

Jessila Hellsgroove #45

Sorry, don't know why all the page setting changed when I published my messages, I had started a new line for each variation of the name, and now all the clarity is gone! (also I couldn't edit nor delete my post??)

So here they are again :

Ambaro ar Ráno / Ambaro arë Ráno / Ambaro yo Ráno / Ambaro Ránoyë

Ambara ar Ráno / Ambara arë Ráno / Ambara yo Ráno / Ambara Ránoyë

Ambaren ar Ráno / Ambaren arë Ráno / Ambaren yo Ráno / Ambaren Ránoyë

Cemno ar Isilo / Cemno arë Isilo / Cemno yo Isilo / Cemno Isiloyë

Cemna ar Isilo / Cemna arë Isilo / Cemna yo Isilo / Cemna Isiloyë

Cemna ar Isila / Cemna arë Isila / Cemna yo Isila / Cemna Isilayë

Aldaleon #46

Aiya Jessila!
I apologise for the confusion. I have found and fixed the error that prevented you from making changes to your post. Thank you for reporting it!

Quenya is indeed rich with words for the Earth and Moon. The latter of the two is beloved by the elves, for it is the surviving fruit of Telperion, one of the Two Trees which illuminated the Earth before the Sun, which incidentially is also a fruit, albeit from Laurelin. So the moon, according to the elves, is a vessel guided by the wayward spirit Tilion (Rána), who loves the fiery lady of the sun, Arien.

Now, on to your question: I believe cemna is inappropriate; cemen is the noun you are looking for. Now, cemen is used by Tolkien in his translation of the Lord's Prayer into Sindarin bo Ceven sui vi Menel "on earth as in heaven," yet I believe ambar "world, the world, earth, habitation, this earth, (lit.) habitation, the great settlement, the earth" is a better choice, due to its philosophical connotations.

The -ye suffix is used for "natural pairs." Would you consider the Earth and the Moon a "natural pair"? Based on what we know about the Universe, one could certainly argue that they are, but within the context of Middle Earth, I would say that the Sun and the Moon is a much more "natural" pair, due to their common origin. So depending on whether you would choose a context within the Middle Earth, or outside of Tolkien's legendarium, the translation might actually be different!

Ambar Isilyeo "of the Earth and the Moon" (natural pair!)
Ambaro ar Isil "of the Earth and the Moon"

There are few examples of are, so I would strongly prefer ar, and certainly before a vowel.

Jessila Hellsgroove #47

Thank you so much Aldaleon! I didn't know how the Elves perceived the Moon, the Earth and Sun. I've read the Lord of the Rings but not the Silmarillion, in which I'm guessing you can find all this lore, right?

Now I've noticed that you added the genitive suffix only once, which sounds better than when I added it to both nouns, and also that when you used the -ye suffix, the genitive came after it, which I hadn't guessed.

I had reservations about "Cemna" (though I find it easier to pronounce as I'm not good at all at rolling the "r"s) because as I understand it, it refers more to the earth as in the soil? But then I saw "cemna" meaning "of earth", hence why I made a few attempts with it as well.

If I'm to consider the Earth and the Moon as spiritual Entities, then wouldn't Rána be more appropriate than Isil? Also, how do you choose between the genitive suffixes -a and -o? Or between "ar" and "yo" in your second suggestion?

And one last question, is there a website that could help me make sure that I get the pronunciation right?

Many thanks!

Aldaleon #48

The Quenta Silmarillion is indeed the source of much elvish lore. The creation of the world, the Ainulindale, is one of the book's best chapters (in my opinion!).

You can choose either Rána or Isil, as they both describe attributes of the moon ("waywardness" and "sheen")!

Concerning the positioning of the genitive suffix -o, I actually have to guess its position based on the material we have. I believe it would make sense to suffix only the last noun of the natural pair, thus Quenta Ambar Isilyeo "The Tale of the Earth and the Moon."

I had glossed over the conjunction yo, which is actually better than ar in this context, as it would turn the two nouns into a pair, thus Ambar yo Ráno "of the Earth and the Moon." That might actually be the best translation for your purpose.

-a is not used to express the genitive case in Quenya, but Sindarin employed it during the early days in Beleriand. -va and -o are your only options. To cite Tolkien himself:

'Possession' was indicated by the adjectival ending -va. [...] Thus 'Orome's horn' was róma Oroméva (if it remained in his possession) [...] but róma Oromëo meant 'a horn coming from Orome', e.g. as a gift, in circumstances where the recipient, showing the gift with pride, might say 'this is Orome's horn'. If he said 'this was Orome's horn', he would say Oroméva. Similarly [the genitive phrase] lambe Eldaron would not be used for 'the language of the Eldar' (unless conceivably in a case where the whole language was adopted by another people), which is [rather] expressed by lambe Eldaiva. [WJ:368-369]

The Glaemscrafu is a great source for recordings in Quenya. I would also recommend reading Fiona's guide on Real Elvish.

Jessila Hellsgroove #49

Funny, I hadn't understood Rána and Isil as simply describing two different attributes of the moon. When I looked up "moon" in the website's dictionary, I got the impression that "Isil" stood for the star whereas "Rána" stood for the Spirit of the Moon. If I was under the right impression, then Rána is the most appropriate term for what I have in mind. But if they're only two aspects of the moon as you said, then I clearly have a preference for "Isil".

In which case, and following the examples you provided me, I guess I should go with "Ambar yo Isilo". Is that correct?

Pronunciation wise, if I'm not mistaken, the "s" in "Isil" is an [s] sound, and not a [z] sound, right?

And finally, I tried several website to get a Tengwar transcription. This one seemed okay, what do you think? www.tecendil.com

Aldaleon #50

Isil literally translates "sheen", thus describing its appearance, whereas Rána means "waywardness," which obviously refers to its behaviour. You can choose either, so choose the one you aesthetically prefer! Hence is Ambar yo Isilo ambar yo isilo as well as Ambar yo Ráno ambar yo ráno indeed correct.

The s in Isil was originally þ (see iþil in Sindarin), but in modern Quenya, it is spelt (and thus pronounced!) with s. z is an entirely different sound, which was replaced by r in modern Quenya.

Tecendil is great, as is Glaemscribe. In fact, we use Glaemscribe on this site. Just make sure that you select Quenya mode.

Jessila Hellsgroove #52

Thank you so much for your time and all your explanations! It's been really helpful (and instructive ;) )