Global Title Problems

Note: for other information about this topic, also see Inter-language Transcription?.

• [original script] Noldorin Title problem

  • Similar to the Sindarin title problem (wrong title: sindarin; correct title: sindarin), the Noldorin title is currently noldorin and should be noldorin

• [original script] New problem in Quenya transcriptions: thindarin or sindarin?

  • This piece of text is from LotR:

       TH represents the voiceless th in thin cloth.  This has become s in spoken Quenya, though still written in a different letter; as in Q. isil, S. ithil, moon.

  • Let's take the Quenya word "Sindarin" for an example. In primitive elvish the root of "grey" is √THIN, and in Sindarin the word is thind, so in Quenya it should be thindarin, not sindarin as written above.

• [third edit] New problem in Quenya transcriptions: ñoldorin or noldorin?

  • It should be written ñoldorin (since it is pronounced "ñoldorin") in the third age because Tolkien wrote this in LotR:

       NG represents ng in finger, except finally where it was sounded as in English sing.  The latter also occurred initially in Quenya...

• Conclusion:

The titles should be thindarin and ñoldorin.

These are three problems that occurs in titles. Thanks for reading this!

by thinduial

noldorin "Noldorin" should rather be ñoldorin "Ñoldorin" (< NGOL), but yes, these seem to be automation errors that escaped revision.

Thanks for reminding me of that problem. I remember now that early ñ sounds are changed to n in spoken languages but is still written with the letter Noldor (ñoldor).

Röandil was correct - these were caused by automation errors. I've created manual overrides for all eligible languages now. All titles should be correct from now on. Thanks!

Thanks, Aldaleon & Röandil! Maybe we can suggest a change to Glǽmscrafu, but I think identifying s's written with Thûle and n's written with N(g)oldo will be pretty hard for the transcription algorithm because it may need data on the words' roots.

@Röandil @Aldaleon I just found that Noldorin should be written with n, not ñ. Please take a look at my edit of the first message in this thread.

He means that it was transcribed in the Roman alphabet with n (though in linguistic papers written after LOTR, he returns to writing ñ and revises his view of the sound changes affecting that phoneme). It would have still been written in the tengwar with ñ, so ñoldorin is correct. Note also that the letter’s name is ñoldo; Ñoldor is the name of the tribe.

Thanks, Röandil! Now I understand. It seems that now all the titles are correct.