Two possible options for "I will not fear"?

Ungwelócë #1744

Hi, newbie here!

I've been working on a Quenya interpretation of the following for my own interest: "I will not fear / Fear is the Mind-Killer"

I came up with two possible options, and was wondering if I could get this forum's thoughts on their accuracy?

  1. Lá caurévan (I will not fear.) -> This one is true to the original phrase
  2. Caurë vá mauyauva nin (Fear will not compel me) -> This one is true to the intent of the original phrase.

Then,

Caurë i orinehtar (Fear is the Mind-killer/slayer) I'm taking the stance that mind is the same as "inner thought" here.

I find this ironic because Tolkien did not like Herbert's work at all. :)

Could I get your thoughts? Thanks so much!

Tamas Ferencz #1745

Hello!

Good attempts! I have a few comments though. Kaure is a noun, not a verb, it can't be used to mean "to fear, be afraid". It's also a word from a quite early version of Quenya, it's safer to choose something from the later versions of the language. thorya- is a verb meaning "to fear, feel terror", can be spelled also as sorya-, and thosse or sosse is the related noun "fear, terror", so this would give us

Lá thoryuvan.

And

Thosse vá mauyuva ni.

Orinehtar would have a long ó so

Thosse órinehtar (ná).

Ungwelócë #1746

Hi Tamas, thank you for your input!

If I remember right sorya/thorya is a matter of whether or not I'd like to go with Exilic Quenya thanks to the Shibboleth of Fëanor. Would it be more appropriate to use sorya/sosse to reflect the even later versions of the language from a timeline point of view?

By the way the Atanquesta is an amazing resource and has been very helpful in my learning Quenya and its grammar rules. Thank you so much for creating it. :)

Ungwelócë #1747

On that note I've steadily worked through the entire Litany Against Fear, and I know it's not perfect by any means however I'm pleased with the first effort. I've made revisions as noted to the first two lines and reflected them across the rest of the Litany!

þossë vá mauyauva ni / Fear will not compel me (I must not fear)

þossë órinehtar ná / Fear is the mind slayer

þossë nihtaqualmë nin, tyaren nancarinqua / fear is the little-death that brings complete destruction

þossenya termaruvan / I will face my fear

lavuvan sa lahta nin, ar tere nin / I will permit it to pass over me and through me

ar y'avánie sa / And when it has gone past

queruvan i órë, cenuva i lomentierya / I will turn the inner eye to see its path.

þossë i avánie, nauva sinome umuntiéva. / Where the fear has gone, there will be nothing.

rie lemyauvan. / Only I will remain.

Tamas Ferencz #1748

Thank you - I am glad that you liked my work!

I will "dissect" your translation tomorrow.

Röandil #1749
  • Lá þoryuvan / Þosse vá mauyuva ni

is prohibitive “must not, shall not, is not to,” so third-person usage in Þosse vá mauyuva ni is ungrammatical, as “fear” isn’t an entity whose volition can be negated. I’d actually swap and in these sentences.

  • If I remember right sorya/thorya is a matter of whether or not I’d like to go with Exilic Quenya thanks to the Shibboleth of Fëanor.

Sort of: “[M]any among the Exiles restored the sound [þ], after their adoption of Sindarin as their diurnal speech, a language which favoured the sound [þ]. Some retained it in imitation of the Vanyar […] This was done chiefly in reciting or reading aloud matter written in PQ. In the actual use of the TQ as a spoken language s for þ remained characteristic of the Ñoldor” (PE19:71). Regardless of its dialectal pronunciation, it would have always been “properly” spelled with þúle in the tengwar, so many neo-Elvish authors today mirror that usage with thorn in the Latin alphabet.

  • On that note I’ve steadily worked through the entire Litany Against Fear...

Nice job! There are some inflectional slips throughout and a few misused words. I’ll post a line-by-line in its own comment.

Tamas Ferencz #1751

I feel fear is anthropomorphic in this Litany and the use of is not misplaced.

As Roandil has also offered to comment on the translation, I will bow out this time. Thanks for sharing your work, Ungwelóce!

Röandil #1752
  • Þosse vá mauyauva ni

See above. I think the closest Quenya equivalent to “must not” here would be volitional prohibitive , so I’d say Vá þoryuvan(ye) “I shall not/will not/must not fear.”

  • Þossë órinehtar ná

Missing the definite article here, so Þosse i órinehtar (ná). I’ll honor your choice of óre, but I do think the closer Elvish match to Herbert’s “mind” in the Litany is indo.

  • Þossë nihtaqualmë nin, tyaren nancarinqua

This reads “Fear bit-death-agony for-me, cause-I destroyful.” I’d recommend the adjective nitya (“little, small”) and the noun ñuru (“death” as an abstract). Tyar- is a good choice but misconjugated, and -inqua doesn’t attach to verbal stems. We could revise this to Þosse i nitya-ñuru (ná) i tyare aqua nancarme “Fear (is) the little-death that causes complete undoing/destruction.”

  • Þossenya termaruvan

Termar- is intransitive “stand, endure, last” (lit. “through-abide”); for “face, confront,” I’d recommend tenta- “be directed toward” or tar- “stand” with the allative: Tentuvan(ye) þossenya “I-will-face my-fear” or Taruvan(ye) þossenyanna “I-will-stand against-my-fear.”

  • Lavuvan sa lahta nin, ar tere nin

Here’s an instance where I think Quenya would be very inclined to append the object as well as the subject: lavuva-n sa > lavuva-nye-s. Nin is dative “to/for me”; the object of infinitive lahta and preposition ter would likely be nominative-accusative ni, though I think we need another verb here for the sense of “pass/move through” to resolve the semantic friction of !lahta ter: Lavuvanyes lahta (ni) ar termene ni “I-will-allow-it to-pass-over (me) and move-through me.”

  • ar y’avánie sa

In the instance of yá avánie, the perfect augment would be more likely to elide than the long vowel of (WJ:366). Additionally, we’d see a subject suffix rather than an independent pronoun here, so ar yá vánies. (I don’t think auta- is quite the right verb for “go past, pass by” and would use men- myself.)

  • queruvan i órë, cenuva i lomentierya

Cen- should take a dative gerund here for the sense of “in order to see,” and lomentie is the parting of journey-paths, the opposite of omentie, the junction of the directions of two people. Mentie or just tie are probably more appropriate here: Queruvan i óre cenien (men)tierya “I will turn the óre to-see its-path.”

  • Þossë i avánie, nauva sinome umuntiéva

This reads “Fear that has-passed, will-be here have-nothinged.” The first half doesn’t reflect the relativity of the original, and Tolkien abandoned the stative (umuntiéva) in later writings as the “be” root ceased to be √YĒ. I’d say Yanna/ainomenna eménie i þosse, munta euva “Where/wherever the fear has gone, nothing shall-exist.”

  • rie lemyauvan

I’d say Inye rie lemyuva or …termaruvalemya- almost certainly wouldn’t preserve -a in its future inflection. Without the free-standing emphatic pronoun, rie seems to be modifying the action of the verb over its agent; the comparable difference in English would be something like “Only I, I alone, will remain” vs. “I will remain and remain only, do nothing else.”

Again, lovely work, and thanks again for sharing!

Ungwelócë #1753

Thanks so much Röandil, I really appreciate you taking the time to review my translation and also for describing your process. This is a great learning experience!

  • "Regardless of its dialectal pronunciation...þúle in the tengwar, so many neo-Elvish authors today mirror that usage with thorn in the Latin alphabet."

Interesting, good to know! Given that þúle and silmë had the same representational sound and letter prior to the change to a voiceless aspirant "þ" how would one know when to use either letter? Or did þúle only come about after the þ > s change and silmë was used for all "s" cases prior to that? I hope my question makes sense.

  • "I’ll honor your choice of óre, but I do think the closer Elvish match to Herbert’s “mind” in the Litany is indo..."

Full disclosure I didn't know about indo previously, but looking up the definition it's definitely more appropriate. How would the definite article "i" interact with a word that begins with "i" though? I'm guessing it would be a consonant placed between them Þosse i (consonant)indonehtar (ná).

  • This reads “Fear bit-death-agony for-me, cause-I destroyful.”

Hahah, I definitely have a ways to go with learning Quenya, but I appreciate you spelling out how these end up reading. Whoopsie.

  • Additionally, we’d see a subject suffix rather than an independent pronoun here, so ar yá vánies. (I don’t think auta- is quite the right verb for “go past, pass by” and would use men- myself.)

I see what you mean here, auta- is temporal versus men-. It seemed to make sense to me because "and when it has gone past" suggests a temporal as well as spatial relationship with the subject.

Lastly:

  • ainomenna eménie i þosse, munta euva
  • Inye rie lemyuva

    I know the Litany Against Fear doesn't follow a meter or rhythm to begin with, even though termar makes plenty more sense from a definition point of view...lemyuva and euva rhyming is very satisfying.


Thanks again for going over this so thoroughly! It means a lot. :)

Röandil #1758
  • I hope my question makes sense.

I think you might have it the wrong way round: originally, þ and s were separate sounds in the language, each represented with their own characters. They merged into s in some pronunciations but were written as before, in much the same way that we spell “white” with an h that some English dialects don’t pronounce. Here’s a writeup that explains Tolkien’s thoughts on it in some detail!

  • How would the definite article “i” interact with a word that begins with “i” though?

We see a couple instances of what might be an epenthetic n to break up vowel sequences, so a possible solution might be þosse’n indonehtar (on the model of utúlie’n aure), but without explicit guidance or more data, it’s hard to say. I’d probably leave i as-is and elide in speech.

  • lemyuva and euva rhyming is very satisfying

Strictly speaking, termaruva rhymes with euva as much as lemyuva does, and they rhyme with each other (/-u.va/) more than they do with euva (/ew.va/)!