What is the difference between súlë and silmë?

Yúlaldië #269

I don't know why there are two kinds of s's! What's the difference?

Original post: www.elfdict.com

<Súlë and Silmë>

www.tecendil.com This website is where I got the súlë from, (represented in English with the letter thorn 'þ').

I am trying to make a tattoo saying "breathe" in Quenya. That website is giving me multiple translations of 'breathe' and 'breath', and it has become even more confusing because its translation of the word "sule" (what I thought was just the name for their 's' character) is actually "breath". So the name for their letter 's' translates to "breath" or "spirit". Like, look at this: www.tecendil.com

<Breath>

Here's a copy and paste of that page:

"súle": QUENYA n. column, pillar

"þúle": QUENYA n. breath; spirit [stem: súli-]

"þúlë": QUENYA n. spirit [as exertion of will]; breath [stem: súli-]

So there's so much of a difference between the word "súle" and the word "þúle" that they are pronounced differently and need a separate character to differentiate between them so that they're not homophones?

But that's not the word that means just "breathe". It's a word I accidentally found by typing "sule" (the word for that 's') instead of "suya" (the word I found for "breathe"). That's getting off-topic.

<To Breathe>

Parf Edhellen translates "breathe" as súya. www.elfdict.com

However, this Tecendil website uses the súle form of 's' (represented by 'þ') to translate the word "to breathe" as "þúya". www.tecendil.com

So is it súya or þúya?

According to www.elfdict.com: "þúya", when entered into the search bar, doesn't match anything on Parf Edhellen.

According to www.tecendil.com: "suya", when entered into the search bar on Tecendil, is recognized and changed to "þúya", as if to say that the only way to write the sound "suya", meaning breathe, is to use the thorn (þ) representing the súle form of 's'.

<What Now?>

This is getting deep into phonetics and linguistics, and it's making me wish I could go back to school to get a linguistics degree, the way I wanted to when I was 14 and wanted to develop writing systems for unwritten tribal languages so that the Bible could be translated into their mother tongue...

I just want to know how the word "to breathe" is translated (I know it's "suya") and then how it is to be spelled, in Quenya script, so that I can tattoo it on my wrist to help me remember to breathe when I'm obsessing over details so much that I forget to take good, deep breaths.

Yúlaldië #270

Another Elvish to English dictionary I use said that it was basically pronounced "thuya" (hence the use of the þ).

I'm looking up "breathe" in Parf Edhellen now: www.elfdict.com and the full definition gives something about the pronunciation I guess? It says:

súya- breathe

súya- (þ) vb. "breathe" (THŪ)

[Quettaparma Quenyallo] Group: Quettaparma Quenyallo. Published: 11/12/2012, 5:46:03 PM by Ardalambion (Helge Fauskanger).

súya- verb. to breathe

Source. Group: Eldamo. Published: 5/24/2017, 6:40:50 AM by Eldamo Import.

So when you say the Elvish word for "breathe" can it sound like either "thuya" or "suya"? Because if it's either one, I'm going to pick "thuya" since the súle form of 's' looks cooler.

Elaran #271

I recommend reading this Tolkien Gateway article: The case of the Quenya change of þ > s.

In short, the Ñoldor, or at least those who disliked Fëanáro, changed the sound "þ" to "s" in their speech, although they still used the tengwa for "þ" in writing (but not for the words that always had "s"). Apart from Fëanáro and his supporters, Ñoldorin linguists continued to use "þ" as well, regardless of their feelings about Fëanáro. This should help with your decision on how to pronounce "þ/s", but remember the distinction while writing in Tengwar.

Yúlaldië #272

Thank you for your reply!

How interesting. So it's a colloquialism, kind of like how some Spanish speakers change 'y' to 'j' (calling the color yellow "jello") because of that one king with a lisp way back in the day. That might be a myth, or I'm remembering the story wrong. Anyway.

So what you're saying is, some people would pronounce the translation of "breathe" as "thuya", if they were supporters of Fëanor, and some would pronounce it as "suya" if they disliked Fëanor. So I have to decide if I like Fëanor or not, and then decide how to pronounce the word when I tell people about my tattoo?

You say they changed "þ" to "s", but not for words that always had "s". How can I tell if this word súya/þúya always had "s" or if it was originally "þ"? One website (Tecendil.com) says it's definitely "þ", but Parf Edhellen uses "s" saying it is pronounced "th".

Another spelling question now, pertaining to Tengwar that I got from Tecendil.com. Visually, that website spells "þúya" differently if I use the acute accent over the 'u' or not (þúya v. þuya). It places the 'ú' over a placeholder stroke (like you do for a freestanding vowel with no consonants to hang onto), instead of putting the 'u' over the "þ".

I just need to know 1) if it's the súlë or silmë character, for when I get the tattoo, 2) if it's pronounced "s" or "th", for when I tell people what my tattoo says, and 3) whether the 'ú' creating a placeholder within the spelling, for an accent, is correct or not.

Thank you!

Nimlothiel #273

Hi, following on from the wind topic, but in terms of Sindarin, is there a preferred word for wind? I.e. is ‘gwaew’ better than ‘sûl’ or vice versa? Sorry I realise this has very little to do with the previous questions it has just been bugging me for a while! Much appreciated!

Yúlaldië #274

Here's my final decision about the tattoo.

I'm wanting my left wrist to say 'Breathe' and my right wrist to say 'Pray'. Both are a reminder, and I want them to look good together. I have narrowed things down to two different options, one of them more symmetrical than the other... I'm posting the question here because I want to know if one is better grammatically.

Left hand - Right hand

Option 1: "á arca a þuya" (Pray and breathe!)

Option 2: "á arca - á þúya" (Pray! Breathe!)

So, do I want to have two long downward strokes on my left hand, and no long downward strokes on my right? Visual: www.tecendil.com

Or would I prefer á arca, á þúya, which has two long downward strokes on the left and the right hand, from á and ú? Visual: www.tecendil.com

If I do choose the symmetrical one, "á arca - á þúya", I'm pretty sure it's grammatically sensible. I'm going to go with that one (if I do go for this whole tattoo thing) if I don't find any evidence against it. :)

Ríon Gondremborion #277

@Nimlothiel The rule-of-thumb I use for windy debates is that gwaew is used on the actual strong physical wind, the kind of thing that slaps you in the face. sûl I use more for the type of wind that is more heard than seen. If I was writing about sailing to Valinor, I would use Gwaew to move my sails while I heard the sûl of Manwe above me. So the former is more natural wind whereas the latter is more Manwe's breath... ach the whole thing's a little weird and I give it a 50% chance of being unfounded.

@Yúlaldië Few questions back etc, no matter whom you support in the linguistic political debates (does anybody else find it hilarious that Tolkien wrote that into the internal history? It's almost as bad as the Downfall of Numenor being in broad terms a long walk-up to a Quenya Atlantis pun...) the letter represented by thorn would always be transcribed using thúle.

Nimlothiel #278

@Ríon Gondremborion Thankyou so much! I’ve wondered for so long what the difference was, and if I was disingenuous whichever in the wrong way. Thankyou for clearing it up for me!