Rule for creation of frequentative/iterative (Quenya)

Tom Bombadil #260

Hello, I am searching for a method to make a verb frequentative. I think that I even found the rule, but there are still open-end questions, and I would be grateful if you helped me to complete my analysis ... or tell me that I am completely wrong with everything and that the rule is different.

I know about at least 11 frequentative verbs, but I had to guess about some of their basic forms. I will mark them with*.

So:

basicfrequentative
*car-cacarra-
*nem-nenemma-
*ul-ululla-
*tul-tutulla-
*quet-quequetta-
sil-sisíla-
sar-/psar-sapsarra-
*talat-tatalat-
tam-tampa-
fir-fifíru-
lav-lapsa-

So, as far as I can evaluate this, this is the rule: The first two letters of the basic verb are duplicated. The last consonant becomes duplicated too and there will be an -a- added.

But these three rules do not describe all frequentative verbs, but just five of them. So we have to ask:

Why is the frequentative form of sil sisíla and not sisilla, Why is it sapsarra and neither sasarra nor psapsarra, Why is the frequentative form of talat tatalat and not tatalatta, Why is the frequentative form of tam tampa and not tatamma, Why is the frequentative form of fir fifíru and not fifirra, And why is the frequentative form of lav lapsa and not lalavva?

Maybe some of these anomalies are caused by the rules of the merging of two consonants? Maybe v + v can not be vv, but must be ps, or anything like that? I'm not sure about this, the only merging rules which I know are those:

-n + t- -> -nt-
-n + p- -> -mp-
-n + c- -> -ñc-
-n + m- -> -mm-
-n + l- -> -ll-
-n + r- -> -rr-
-n + s- -> -ss-
-l + r- -> -ll-
-l + n- -> -ld-

So, do you have any ideas why six of the words do not follow my rule? Is my rule wrong?

I'll be grateful for every answer.

PS. It would also be helpful if you tell more frequentative verbs for I think that just 11 words are insufficient to deduce a general rule.

Aldaleon #261

Hi Tom,

This is a great question! And while this is not an answer, I just want to let you know that I fixed the reason why this thread could not be properly loaded before.

Paul Strack #262

There is another frequentative that you are missing: sisilla- “to glitter or twinkle”. It is an example of your “missing variant”.

There is another clue you are missing in determining the rules for frequentative formation: the source. Most of your examples, including all those of the form cacarra-, come from PE22 (Parma Eldalamberon issue #22), while two (sisíla and fifíru) come from MC (The Monsters and the Critics) and the last two (tamba and lapsa) are from Ety (the Etymologies). Notice how similar forms are from distinct sources.

The sisíla vs. sisilla represent two different ways of forming the frequentative from different periods in Tolkien’s life. Those from PE22 of the form sisilla are (mostly) from the 1940s, while the examples of the form sisíla are from the late 1960s. Within a given source, Tolkien is generally consistent, but he would often changed his mind over time.

So which of these ways of forming the frequentative is “right”? We don’t know.

We do know that the sisíla forms are later, so it might be that Tolkien changed the rules for frequentative formation in the two decades between these examples. Perhaps cacarra should be updated to cacára. Or it could be that both ways of forming the frequentative are valid, and either could be used, depending on circumstances or taste.

That said, you did a pretty good job of detecting and extracting the basic pattern. It helps if you notice and can look at the original sources for particular words, because they often provide additional context. For example, in PE22/100 Tolkien discussed his own rules for frequentative formation in some detail, at least as he imagined them at that point in time (the 1940s).

Tom Bombadil #263

Thanks for your answer, but I forgot a further question during writing the first ones. What about verbs which don't result in a consonant but a vowel? Is any example known about them?

Paul Strack #264

According to the rules on PE22/100, the frequentative form applies only to basic verbs of the from CVC (car) or VC (ul). Tolkien often called these “strong” verbs.

Derived verbs that end in a vowel like (caita) or (tolu) cannot have a frequentative form, as far as I know.

Nimlothiel #283

Hi! I don’t mean to bother anyone but as a younger studier of Sindarin/Quenya and as someone who is not a linguist, what on Amar is a frequentative/iterative? Thankyou for any help once again! It is much appreciated!

Paul Strack #285

A “frequentative” verb is a special variation of a Quenya verb that indicate ongoing or repeated action. For example the verb ul “pour” has the frequentative variant ululla “to keep on pouring”. Sometimes the frequentative form can, over time, gain additional meanings. For example, the frequentative form of mat “to eat” has come to be mammata “to gobble up, gorge, devour”

Nimlothiel #286

Thankyou so much! I really appreciate you taking the time to answer my question - i had tried searching for a definition on Google however it had made little sense. Thanks for clearing it up!