West of moon, East of sun into Sindarin / Tengwar

Tarana #943

I'm new here so I hope I'm doing this right:

Unfortunately I'm absolutely untalented concerning languages (which makes my admiration for you guys even greater), but I want to get my favorite line of my favorite poem tattooed and a mistake in there would propably be about as awkward as getting a Chinese character and then finding it on a restaurants menu... I'd be most thankful for help!

I was looking for a translation of "West of (the) moon, East of (the) sun" into Sindarin, found some different versions an ended up assuming "AnnUn n'Ithil, amrUn n'Anor" (my phone won't let me type the u with that ^ above) might be correct, can anybody tell me if it is?

Also, I'm struggling to transcribe it into Tengwar... I tried getting into it, but it's really confusing to me.

I'm looking forward to answers - or somebody telling me where else to ask :)

Elaran #944

Not quite correct. Simply Dûn Ithil, Rhûn Anor would be better. Click for the Tengwar transcription of the same.

Tarana #945

Amazing, thank you so much!

Sami Paldanius #947

Tarana wrote:

I was looking for a translation of "West of (the) moon, East of (the) sun" into Sindarin

The intended thought of those phrases within Tolkien's poem[1] in LotR is "toward the west [as viewed] from the Moon, toward the east [as viewed] from the Sun".

A non-ambiguous translation would therefore be na ndûn o(d)/uin Ithil, na 'rûn o(d)/uin Anor; although the preposition na might presumably be omitted in poetic language (leaving the lenited[2] first consonants nd- and 'r- to indicate the "motion toward X", in resemblance of certain real-life languages) in light of the fact that Tolkien gave us the verse Ónen i-Estel Edain "I gave the Hope [to] Men" (a syntactic reversal of Modern English "I gave Men the Hope").

O or its prevocalic variant od means "from", and uin stands for "from the". (With Sindarin na 'rûn one can also compare the attested Quenya name Rómenna "Eastwards".)

[1] tolkiengateway.net

[2] tolkiengateway.net

Elaran #948

Whence comes the "intended thought" I wonder? It clearly is not a geographical reference, as that makes little sense (unless the Sun and the Moon were stationary). In any case Sindarin's "hidden genitive" already covers the "from" sense as it came from ancient which was lost alongside other final vowels (cf. "Thus 'Oromë's horn' was róma Oroméva (if it remained in his possession); [...] but róma Oromëo meant 'a horn coming from Oromë', [...]" [HoME-XI/366]). Also the historical development of Sindarin phonetics rather point to "thr..." as the lenition of "rh..." as with the medial rule (click) which is how Sindarin treats words with prepositions (i.e. initials become medial in a sense). Similarly the lenited form of a prenasalised word must act as the nasal-mutated form of a voiced plosive (e.g. with D it would be "in + d... = i-n..."), so it should rather be "na + [n]dûn = na nûn". And there is no need for articles, as the intensification (i.e. Ithil & Anor) already covers that, though words that refer to unique things (e.g. Cemen & Menel) do not need articles in any case.