Sindarin Translation help for Pen and Paper RP

John Ferrone #896

Hey guys,

Looking to find an appropriate name for my Pen and paper group again. We're currently trying to make a cool name for our merry band of Silvan/Sindarin characters. These are the three names as follows. Let us know if our Grammer is on mark or not. We've been trying to craft these for awhile :) Thanks again!

Linnath-en-taur-a-nen Singers of Wood and Water

Linnath-e-palan-taur Singers of the far (Off) Forest

Linnath-e-Gladuial Singers of the Twilight-Wood.

Elaran #897

There are indeed problems. I can go into detail if you wish, but for now I will simply offer more proper translations:

Linnyr e-Daur a Nen
Linnyr e-Daur Chaer
Linnyr e-Galadhuial

John Ferrone #898

I'd like to see your corrections in detail if possible(Only way I'll learn)! Thank you ever so much for your help!

Elaran #899

First issue: linnath would mean "(all) songs" (-ath is the "collective plural" suffix, not plain plural) rather than simply "singers". Quenya has Linda(r) for "Singer(s)", whose direct cognate would indeed be lind in Sindarin (and become linnath with -ath), but this word is already being used for "song". That is why the attested (partial) cognate of that term in Sindarin is rather Lindel (or Glinnel). But these terms refer to the Telerin Elves, not singers in general. So a combination of linna- "to sing" and the agental suffix -or would be more proper. That gives linnor, whose plural form would be linnyr.

That "en" should cause what we call "mixed mutation", which means (among other things) that the initial P, T, C(K) of the words that follow it need to become B, D, G. Also, "en" receives elision in these cases, which your first line misses although the other two show it. Hence my correction of "en-taur" to "e-Daur".

As for changing glad, the word requires its root to be "GALÁT" whereas we only have GÁLAD which yields galadh. It is an attested word, but there are no (published) documents which explain its etymology and attest "GALÁT", so I deem it unsafe to use. As for changing palan with haer, the latter is more fitting for the sense that you wish for the name. That should be all.

John Ferrone #900

Wow! Thanks for all the info. Tis' Eye-opening indeed to see the utter complexity of Sindarin as a language. Reminds me of Latin Declensions during my Classical Anthro Days haha!

Now one question, would Lindel or Glinnel seemingly stand in as a suitable form for Telerin Singers? By that I mean would it be more Lore-accurate for a group of Silvan/Sindar elves to only refer to themselves as Lindel or as Linnyr? These elves also would be of a purely Telerin strain from Eryn Lasgalen...not slightly Neo-Noldorized like some of the Silvan folk in Lindon or Imladris post War of Wrath and destruction of Eregion respectfully. Thanks again!

Elaran #901

If the name is supposed to be used for those who sing as a profession or something along those lines, then it should be linnyr. Or if it is supposed to be (the descendant of) the "Third Clan's" original name (i.e. ancient "Lindāi" who were later called the Teleri), then it can be used if you distinguish the group's name with the addition of "e-Daur a Nen" and such. But now, here is the history of the term in Sindarin:

Its original Sindarin form was Glinnel (pl. Glinnil), which was "a word only known in historical lore" and referred the whole clan (i.e. all Lindar/Teleri). Later the Nandor (who still called themselves "Lindi (sg. Lind?)") came to Beleriand and the Sindar adapted that as Lindel (pl. Lindil) alongside (or later) Lindedhel (pl. Lindedhil) for the Nandor. The Sindar later replaced these with Laegel (pl. Laegil) "Green-elves" to refer to the Nandor, but the Nandor might have kept them while speaking Sindarin.

The (seemingly) latest Lindedhel (pl. Lindedhil) could arguably cover both the Sindar and the Nandor. But as I mentioned, it cannot be used for a small group of Elves by itself, so it needs additions like "e-Daur a Nen" to distinguish the group (otherwise Lindedhil would refer to "All Nandor (and Sindar)"). And given its rather complicated history, I would avoid them. Of course linnyr (i.e. the professional singers, if you will) also needs additions, to be more than "just some singers".

I can instead offer:

Torlinnor (pl. Torlinnyr) - "Forest-singers"
Haelinnor (pl. Haelinnyr) - "Far-singers"
Dúlinnor (pl. Dúlinnyr) - "[Twil/n]ight-singer(s)"

Or:

Aerlinnor (pl. Aerlinnyr) - "[Sea/Holy]-singer(s)"
Randliron (pl. Randliryn) - "Wandering-reciter(s)"
Lirgon (pl. Lirgonin) - "Song-lord(s)"