Must/should in Quenya

Tom Bombadil #406

Are there any words for must, have to and should, or any methods to transcribe them? I usually use the verb horya-, because one of it's meanings is "be compelled to do something", but in my opinion horya- has too many other meanings too. Maybe I misunderstood it and all of horya's meanings are aimed to must, but I'm still searching for an alternative.

So: Does one of you know a less ambiguous word/phrase to express, that someone is forced to do something?

I have already another idea. What do you think? Could we simply translate "you are forced to do it."

as "Lye mauyana carita sa."

or "Lye Nirina carita sa."?

Tamas Ferencz #407

Please allow me to quote the two sections concerning these types of formations from Atanquesta:


Verbs: Impersonal

Whenever an English sentence contains a predicate (which usually contains a verb or copula), it will have a subject (sometimes only implied, as in imperative sentences like Come!). There are situations though where this subject is a very generic one, usually the pronoun it, like in these examples: It’s raining again. It seems to me that we are in agreement.
In Atanquesta the language deals with this sort of situations by allowing certain verbs to appear in a subjectless, so called impersonal conjugation. This means that the verb has no subjects, either standalone or as a pronominal suffix, so it will appear in the sentence in its bare tense form without pronominal suffixes; if the verb has a beneficiary/recipient, it will be in dative case. Here are some examples:
kelya- “to rain” Kelya. “It rains; it’s raining.”
niku- “to be cold, to freeze” Nique. “It is cold. It freezes.”
nem- “seem, appear” Neme nin raumo túla. “It seems to me [that] a storm is coming.”
óla- “dream” ólane sen sa wilwarin nése. “He dreamt [lit. it dreamt to him] that he was a butterfly.”
mauya- “compel, oppress” Mauya men tuve analta lunte. “We must [lit. it compels us to] find a bigger boat.”
or- “to warn, urge, feel an urge/wish/desire” This is a special one as this verb has two possible aorist forms with slightly different meanings, ora  and ore. Ora nin lasselanta nauva vanima si loas. “Something tells me/I have a feeling [lit. it warns me] that autumn will be beautiful this year.” Ore nin kape alassenen. “I would like to/it feels like/I need to leap with joy.”
ek- “may, have a chance or opportunity”; eke men tyale enar? “can we/may we play tomorrow?” Neme nin Anar kaluva enar; ekuva tyen moia i lotarwasse. “Looks like the sun will shine tomorrow; you will have a chance to work in the garden.”

 Verbs: Auxiliary Phrases: May, Can, Know, Must etc.

Just like English, Atanquesta has a number of verbs that are used as auxiliaries, i.e. verbs that are coupled with infinitives to express intent, chance, possibility, need etc. Think of I must eat, you can dance, I dare not go, etc. We have the following in Atanquesta:
ek-, or-, and mauya- were discussed in the previous section Verbs:Impersonal
pol- “can, be able to (physically)” polin teke “I can write” (because I am healthy and nothing physical prevents me)
ista- “can, know (how to)” istan teke “I can write” (I know how to write because I have learnt it)
lerta- “can, be free to, be allowed to” lertan teke “I can write” (I am free to do it, no one has permitted or prevented me)
mer- “want, wish, hope” merin teke “I want to write, I wish to write”

If you want to follow the verb with an object pronominal suffix, you’ll need to use the particular infinitive: lertan tekitas “I can write it”, merin hentaitat “I want to read them”.

Tom Bombadil #408

Ok, so mauya is right, good, but there is another aspect which I don't understand yet: Why do you request a dative object if the verb will have a beneficiary/recepient? Isn't "beneficiary/recepient of the verb" able to be any kind of object? Isn't the "someone" of "To compel someone" a direct object, i.e. an accusative object? I thought that I can be compelled by a dative object, but that I compel an accusative object, don't I?

Tamas Ferencz #409

Tom,

Isn't the "someone" of "To compel someone" a direct object, i.e. an accusative object?

In English, yes. In Quenya however, mauya- "compel" (among other verbs I listed in my citation in my first comment) belongs to a group of words that are conjugated impersonally, meaning they have no subject in the sentence. But mauya- has two objects: the person who is compelled is the indirect object (so it is put in dative), and what that person is compelled to do is the direct object - and this in Quenya (just like in English) is expressed by an infinitive. So an example:

Mauya nin lemya marre.

[It] compels me to stay at home. = I must stay at home.

[Missing subject] / indirect object in Dative / direct object expresses as infinitive / adverb.

Tom Bombadil #410

Ok, I think I got it. Allow me one last question: Is this context (adding a pronominal suffix to that verb which is connected with the auxiliary verb) the only one, where a particular infinitive is necessary?

Aldaleon #411

I would like to add that this particular verbiage is likely due to the way elves perceived dreams and thoughts. Elves are fundamentally spiritual creatures, and their body is but a shell which tie them to the earth. It is said that the elves' inner fire would eventually consume their body, to the point that they literally fade and become incorporeal. And the Vala Irmo comunicated with elves through dreams, corroborating the nature of the verb in the sense that the dream came to them, rather that originating from them.

Therefore, I would argue that it is not far fetched to believe that these traits had an influence on their language.

Two examples of this (from above):

Irmo invoked dreams amongst the elves, thus ólane sen sa wilwarin nése. >> It is possible that the dream came from Irmo.

The elf's inner fire compels him them all to find a bigger boat, thus mauya men tuve analta lunte. >> It is possible that the Valar compelled the elves to find a bigger boat.

Tamas Ferencz #415

Tom,

if I understand your question correctly: yes, the particular infinitive is the one to use when you want to attach an object suffix, or a possessive suffix + object suffix combo to the infinitive. If not, then you use the simple infinitive. These two attested examples by Tolkien illustrate it nicely:

lá caritas, navin, alasaila ná Not to-do-it, I think, is unwise. la navin caritalyas mára I don't think doing-your-it [is] good.

Aldaleon,

that may be, but this kind of construction is not unheard of in IRL languages, e.g. in Hungarian we have something very similar.

Sami Paldanius #433

Nányë nauta — "I am obliged (to)"

Hóra nin/nio/nillo — "It expects regarding me/of me/from me, I am expected (to)"

Sangienya ná / Eä sangië — "My necessity is (to)" / "There is a necessity" (the latter followed by i "that" and a conjugated verb when a person must be announced — probably the shortest way to do that! ;) )

Nin carië ná — an imitation of Latin mihi est faciendum, Finnish minun on tekeminen

Helge Kåre Fauskanger #435

For "must" I would use mauya- plus dative plus infinitive: Mauya nin auta = it compels for me to leave = I must leave.

"Should" as in "ought to" is perhaps best rendered with some construction like "do well": Caruval mai tuliénen = you will do well by coming = you should come (or: caruval mai qui tuluval, "you will do well if you will come").